"Вот"

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Originally Posted by Johanna

"When in Rome, do as the Romans"

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Вот-вот! "В чужой монастырь со своим уставом не лезь!" ;-)

(Отрезано от темы Etiquette in Russia/Ukraine/Belarus Л.).

:mosking: I am just trying to learn all the "ВОТ" expressions - tricky- there are so many and they don't translate "literally" (precisely) into European expressions that make sense to me.... I keep mixing it up and forgetting what I alredy learnt.

According to Google, "вот-вот" means "That's it".
But google is not always trustworthy... As we know !

Has anyone seen a list of all these expressions with a translation? That would be very handy.... Here are some.

Так-то вот!
Вот так!
Вот именно!
Так вот...
Вот так, так!
Вот и всё...
Вот в чём...
Вот это да!
Вот то...
Вот как...

In most cases "Вот" is a germ word and is used only in general speech and almost never in written. For understanding the sense you can either omit or replace it with something like: you know; like; so.

From your examples maybe only "Вот в чём" would loose the sense in Russian when omitting "Вот". In eglish it something like "That is [exactly, namely, etc] in what ..."

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Originally Posted by CoffeeCup

From your examples maybe only "Вот в чём" would loose the sense in Russian when omitting "Вот". In eglish it something like "That is [exactly, namely, etc] in what ..."

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Вот ещё! (=No way!) Don't listen to him, Johanna! In most cases it can not be omitted without drastic change of sense.

Here is my attempt of interpretation.

Вот... Here...
Вот. Here you are.
Так-то вот! Вот так! = This is the way!
Вот именно! Вот-вот. Right, exactly! (can be omitted)
Так вот, ... So, ... (When coming back to the topic after interruption.)
Вот так-так! Oops! (Or something like that. Expresses surprise.)
Вот и всё. That's all.
Вот в чём... That is what...
Вот это да! Wow! or Now this is the big one! (Or something like that depending on context. Expresses admiration.)
Вот то... (? not a phrase by itself)
Вот как... This is the way...

Google is not wrong all the century long. Thinking a little bit I may confess that not bad translation for "Вот" (along with my previous versions) can be "That is ..., it is ..., there is ..., here is ...". As you know Russians don't use either "is" or the whole such a grammar construction. So, it eventually leads to omitting "Вот" in written Russian.

As for it-ogo's example "Вот ещё!" where he claims that "Вот" is ultimately important. The phrase "Вот ещё" has no any sense without a context. There are at least two options:
1. Вот ещё один пример. = Ещё один пример. (There is one more example) – Here in Russian "Вот" can be omitted.
2. Вот ещё чего выдумал. = Ещё чего выдумал. (He had imagined too much to himself. No way!) – This is a persistent phrase in Russian and can be shortened in many ways:
- Вот ещё (the way it-ogo used it)
- Ещё чего (the way without "Вот")

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Originally Posted by CoffeeCup

As for it-ogo's example "Вот ещё!" where he claims that "Вот" is ultimately important. The phrase "Вот ещё" has no any sense without a context. There are at least two options:

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The point is there is a number of fixed phrases, where "Вот" is a necessary part and therefore is ultimately important. Yes, one can find synonyms for these phrases or ambiguities in their treatment but it is a bad reason to deny their existence. :) Everything has no sense without context.

Another point is that those phrases are usually very colloquial and not strictly formalized so for the beginner it is better to avoid them until get some intuitive feeling of the language.

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

Так-то вот! Вот так! = This is the way!

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Would this be 'this is the way it is done' or 'this is the way we should take''? And I take it these are two distinct expressions, not just one, correct?

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Вот как... This is the way...

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And that's the same?

Robin

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Originally Posted by bitpicker

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

Так-то вот! Вот так! = This is the way!

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Would this be 'this is the way it is done' or 'this is the way we should take''?

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May be any of these.

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And I take it these are two distinct expressions, not just one, correct?

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There are nuances which are difficult to speak about without a context. But I'd say that both of them are finalizing sentences with empowering effect. But in average "Вот так!" is more aggressive. It can be the end of an ultimatum. Like "Dixi" maybe.

"Если ещё раз напачкаешь в лифте, я заявлю на тебя в милицию. Вот так!"

Так-то вот! is often has the sense of edification. Something like "Now you see I was right!". But it is not obvious, they can be used interchangeably.

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Originally Posted by bitpicker

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Вот как... This is the way...

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And that's the same?

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Not always. Pay attention to the punctuation marks.

OK, let's go further into depths. :)
"Так-то вот!" normally is a separate sentence while "Вот как" and "Вот так" can be used both as a separate sentence and as a beginning of sentence.

Some ways of usage
"Вот так!" - Dixi! (see above) (I underlined intonation stress.)
or
"Вот так!" - I did it!

"Вот как!" - "Oh, now I see what is the way!"
"Вот так!"="Вот как!" (interchangeable) - "Ah, this is what you did! (Implied: Now endure my response!)"

"Вот как..." = "Вот так..." - This is the way to... (do something. Now, boys and girls, try to do it yourself.)

A bit confusing. Finally this is a free colloquial speech.

Thanks for the explanations. These nuances are hard to get. ;)

Robin

I'd say that the difference between "вот так!" and "вот как..." is that using the first you say "that's the way! / that's how!" to someone else, and you yourself are aware of the "way" already. It often can be used gloatingly, or exultantly, or moralizely. The logical stress is on the "так".
But when you say "вот как...", it's like you've just found out something and say to yourself "oh... that's the way the things go...". Can be often used with a disappointed tone, but not only.
The logical stress is on the "вот".

Oh thanks everyone! I didn't see this until now - it had been moved.
Particularly Iti-ogo for the line-by-line breakdown, but the other explanation are really useful too...

This is great! Very helpful.

I am creating a BIG (1000s) deck of Russian flashcards and I will make a card for each one of these.

These words don't sound very important but expressions like this can make all the difference in whether or not a sentence is understandable.

Thanks again!

Thanks to everyone for helping explain this. For us learners it is good to learn what these colloquial phrases are, even if they are not the sorts of things one might write in a academic environment.

One example I learned from my vocabulary tapes:

Вот так удача! ---»What a stroke of luck.

"Вот" is not a germ word. If all such words were germ words, spoken Japanese would be 80% germ words. These words introduce emotional accents and basic judgments that are very important in informal conversations. Of course you can omit all of them, but you will sound completely different and, in most cases, too formal. Such phrases as "так-то вот", "вот-вот", "ну и ну", etc. refer to certain short dialogues in which they are commonly heard (or first heard by you as a baby). Basically it is a way to express attitude and emotions that were applicable in those situations. They are not so much different from quoting movies or from other ways of referring to memes. It is very difficult (if not impossible) to explain them outside their contexts.