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August 22nd, 2006, 09:53 PM
tricoteuse

Transitive/Intransitive - to learn/study

I had a discussion with a Russian friend about the verbs учиться and учить, and he explained that the first was intransitive and the second transitive. For учиться he gave the examples Учиться в школе and Учиться петь. But if it's intransitive, how come you still learn something, i.e. "learn how to sing". Isn't that transitive all of a sudden?

Can someone explain all that stuff with the different verbs for "to study" etc? I don't really get the difference.
August 22nd, 2006, 10:05 PM
Оля

Re: Transitive/Intransitive - to learn/study

Quote:

Originally Posted by tricoteuse

I had a discussion with a Russian friend about the verbs учиться and учить, and he explained that the first was intransitive and the second transitive. For учиться he gave the examples Учиться в школе and Учиться петь. But if it's intransitive, how come you still learn something, i.e. "learn how to sing". Isn't that transitive all of a sudden?

Can someone explain all that stuff with the different verbs for "to study" etc? I don't really get the difference.

Transitive verb requires a substantive in accusative case. In "Учиться петь" there is not a substantive.

"Учиться" = to be taught (by somebody or by oneself)
Я хочу учиться музыке (not an accusative case!). Он учится читать. Они учатся в школе.

"Учить" = 1) to study something 2) to teach somebody.
1) Я учу английский язык. Она учит биологию.
2) Папа учит меня кататься на велосипеде. Педагог учит детей.
August 22nd, 2006, 10:11 PM
Lt. Columbo

aren't you curious about, обучaть, изучить, научить, научиться, выучить :twisted: ?
August 22nd, 2006, 10:13 PM
tricoteuse

Re: Transitive/Intransitive - to learn/study

Quote:

Originally Posted by Оля

Transitive verb requires a substantive in accusative case. In "Учиться петь" there is not a substantive.

Exaaactly what I needed to know, now I understand completely. Thank you :)
August 22nd, 2006, 10:14 PM
tricoteuse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo

aren't you curious about, обучaть, изучить, научить, научиться, выучить :twisted: ?

Terribly! Do tell me :D
August 23rd, 2006, 01:09 AM
shadow1

учить + Accusative = to learn
Я учу английский язык = I am learning English

учить + Dative = to teach
Я учу русскому языку = I am teaching Russian

изучать + accusative = to study
Я изучаю русский язык = I am studying Russian

It is possible to study something and not learn it (like studying Russian :) ).
August 23rd, 2006, 01:29 AM
zomby_pengy

Re: Transitive/Intransitive - to learn/study

Quote:

Originally Posted by tricoteuse

I had a discussion with a Russian friend about the verbs учиться and учить, and he explained that the first was intransitive and the second transitive. For учиться he gave the examples Учиться в школе and Учиться петь. But if it's intransitive, how come you still learn something, i.e. "learn how to sing". Isn't that transitive all of a sudden?

Can someone explain all that stuff with the different verbs for "to study" etc? I don't really get the difference.

the suffixes "-ся" and "-сь" usually give the meaning "to oneself". And verbs with these suffixes are intransitive, as they do not take any direct object
August 25th, 2006, 12:26 PM
paasikivi

And for example

я интересуюсь животными,

I interest myself with animals. This is not transitive?

животные интересуют меня is?
August 25th, 2006, 12:47 PM
Indra

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

And for example

я интересуюсь животными,

I interest myself with animals. This is not transitive?

животные интересуют меня is?

Yes and yes
August 25th, 2006, 01:21 PM
Оля

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

And for example

я интересуюсь животными,

I interest myself with animals. This is not transitive?

животные интересуют меня is?

"Животными" is i.c. of "животные" (pl). It's not an accusative. "Интересуюсь" (интересоваться) is not transitive. Verbs with -ся are not transitive.
August 27th, 2006, 08:29 AM
paasikivi

Re: Transitive/Intransitive - to learn/study

Quote:

Originally Posted by Оля

Я хочу учиться музыке (not an accusative case!).

Dative?

она учится биологии?
August 27th, 2006, 08:37 AM
Оля

Re: Transitive/Intransitive - to learn/study

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Оля

Я хочу учиться музыке (not an accusative case!).

Dative?

она учится биологии?

В принципе да. Грамматически это правильно.
Но только учиться биологии нельзя, лучше учить_ биологию (acc.).

Учиться музыке (dat.) значит, что человек приобретает умение играть на каком-то инструменте, нажимать на клавиши, петь и т.д., то есть он будет уметь что-то ДЕЛАТЬ (руками, голосом).
А учить биологию (acc.) значит - просто ЗНАТЬ много всего про биологию.

Например, еще можно сказать "учиться ремеслу", "учиться вождению (автомобиля)".
August 27th, 2006, 02:23 PM
paasikivi

What's the difference?

Я встретил ангел / Я встретился с ангелом?
August 27th, 2006, 02:36 PM
Оля

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

What's the difference?

Я встретил ангел / Я встретился с ангелом?

There is no difference for me.
August 27th, 2006, 02:51 PM
gRomoZeka

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

What's the difference?
Я встретил ангела / Я встретился с ангелом?

There is a difference, though it's very subtle and often can be ignored. Roughly speaking "встретился" may imply that you wasn't the only one who initiated this event (for example you and angel arranged that meating together).
August 27th, 2006, 04:18 PM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

What's the difference?

Я встретил ангел / Я встретился с ангелом?

And what's the difference in English between

"I met John" and "I met with John"?
August 27th, 2006, 04:22 PM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

And for example

я интересуюсь животными,

I interest myself with animals. This is not transitive?

животные интересуют меня is?

Transitive means it takes a direct object. The direct object in Russian is always in the accusative case (or may be genitive for animtate nouns).

я интересуюсь животными. Nothing is actually being done to the animals; they are merely the instrument with which the "Я" interests his or her self.

I hit the dog.
Obviously the dog is the direct object.
August 27th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Vadim84

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

What's the difference?

Я встретил ангела / Я встретился с ангелом?

'Я встретил ангела' can mean either 'I met the angel (at the airport, station, etc)' or 'I met an/the angel (accidentally, by chance)'.

'Я встретился с ангелом' can mean either 'I met an/the angel (accidentally, by chance)' or 'I met with the angel (a prearranged meeting)'
August 28th, 2006, 05:58 AM
paasikivi

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATY

я интересуюсь животными. Nothing is actually being done to the animals; they are merely the instrument with which the "Я" interests his or her self.
I hit the dog.
Obviously the dog is the direct object.

Я видел собаки.

Here also nothing is done to the dog, it is just something that I see.
August 28th, 2006, 06:07 AM
Alware

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATY

я интересуюсь животными. Nothing is actually being done to the animals; they are merely the instrument with which the "Я" interests his or her self.
I hit the dog.
Obviously the dog is the direct object.

Я видел собаки.

Here also nothing is done to the dog, it is just something that I see.

Я видел собаки. doesn't make sense

Я видел собаку I saw a dog
Я видел собак I saw dogs
August 28th, 2006, 02:36 PM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATY

я интересуюсь животными. Nothing is actually being done to the animals; they are merely the instrument with which the "Я" interests his or her self.
I hit the dog.
Obviously the dog is the direct object.

Я видел собаки.

Here also nothing is done to the dog, it is just something that I see.

Of course something is being done to the dog, it is being seen. You are taking things too literally. For something or someone to be the direct object of the verb it has to be the thing that the ACTION of the verb is directed at (directly).

It doens't mean the dog actually has to be touched in some way by the subject of the sentence.

What about in English?

You can't say - I saw he (nominative)
you say
I saw him (him is the accusative form of he).
August 31st, 2006, 07:34 PM
MalenkayaKatinka

Re: Transitive/Intransitive - to learn/study

Quote:

Originally Posted by zomby_pengy

Quote:

Originally Posted by tricoteuse

I had a discussion with a Russian friend about the verbs учиться and учить, and he explained that the first was intransitive and the second transitive. For учиться he gave the examples Учиться в школе and Учиться петь. But if it's intransitive, how come you still learn something, i.e. "learn how to sing". Isn't that transitive all of a sudden?

Can someone explain all that stuff with the different verbs for "to study" etc? I don't really get the difference.

the suffixes "-ся" and "-сь" usually give the meaning "to oneself". And verbs with these suffixes are intransitive, as they do not take any direct object

They also call them reflexive verbs because they reflex back onto the subject.
August 31st, 2006, 07:40 PM
MalenkayaKatinka

Quote:

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Quote:

Originally Posted by paasikivi

What's the difference?
Я встретил ангела / Я встретился с ангелом?

There is a difference, though it's very subtle and often can be ignored. Roughly speaking "встретился" may imply that you weren't the only one who initiated this event (for example you and angel arranged that meating together).

Just a small correction. :wink:

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