Printable View
Hello
Each and every document I read about the Russian grammer suggests that the word "много" takes the genative case. Is that because the word "много" it self is the genetive form of the adjective "многий" ?
Is it possible to write "многие машины" to mean "many cars" . What does "многая машина"mean. The usage "многий" must be very limited our maybe just with plural forms of the verbs ? Could you give some examples of it's usage?
Thank you.
No. The word много is an adverb. Adverbs do not decline in Russian. The adverb много governs the genitive.
The word многий is an adjective and it declines. It agrees with a noun in case.
You can not say ‘многая машина’ because this adjective is used in plural only. So you can say:
1) много машин
2) многие машины
The variant (1) can be used only as a subject or a direct object in the sentence. In the former case the verb can be used either in neuter singular or (sometimes) in plural form.
По дороге едет(or едут) много машин. (subject)
Я вижу много машин. (object)
The variant (2) can be used in any case (but only in plural):
Многие машины так и не были проданы. (nominative)
У многих машин передние колёса являются ведущими. (genitive)
По многим машинам мы уже нашли информацию. (dative)
На многие машины установлена система навигации. (accusative)
Со многими машинами случилось то же самое. (instrumentalis)
Во многих машинах нет кондиционера. (locative)
"Много" is not a genitive form of adjective "многий" — these words are different parts of speech with the same root.
"Многий" is used only in plural form, "многие". It means "many" (or, to be precise, "many of"):
Многие машины в России — с правым рулем. Many (of) cars in Russia are RHD vehicles.
DAMN! I came the the second — again!
какая разница?Quote:
1) много машин
2) многие машины
Yes, it's right. It is as if you said "many of something".Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
In English, you say: "Hundreds of cars", "A lot of cars", "Lots of cars", "Plenty of cars"...
In Russian we say the same way. In addition, we also say "Five of cars", "Ten of cars" etc.
Complare: сотни машин, много машин, множество машин, пять машин, десять машин etc.
No, it is not. "Много" is not a genitive form. And it is not even an adjective. It is more like an adverb, and "много" is unchangeable.Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
The genitive form of "многий" would be "многого".
No, it is impossible. "Многий" requires any countable noun to be in plural. "Многие машины" is possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
However, there is a subtle difference between "много машин" and "многие машины". They are not interchangeable.
"Много машин" is just "a lot of cars": На улице много машин.
"Многие машины" is "many of the cars (but not all of them)". Compare:
На улице много машин. Многие машины совсем новые. - There are lots of cars in the street. Many of them are quite new.
PS Actually, you can say "многие из + GEN" or just "многие". It means the same. The following versions are interchangeable:
Многие из машин совсем новые.
Многие машины совсем новые.
Многие из них совсем новые.
Многие совсем новые. (If it is clear the conversation was about cars).
I understand thanks. So it does not have an adjective form?
Много is an adverb.
Многий is an adjective.
There is a slight difference in their meaning as explained above.
Sometimes (but not always) they are interchangeable:
Он посетил много стран. - He visited a lot of countries.
Он посетил многие страны. - He visited many of the countries.
I understand that but there must be a reason why Много takes genetive case. This adverb must be the genetive form of a word. Maybe it has the nominative, the accusative, dative etc equivalents? Like in English (if I am not mistaken) "lot" means "many of something". So it is used as "a lot of cars". My point is "a lot of" in English has a reason for the way it is used so Много must also have a reason.
I do not understand your concern. When learning another language, I would like to know "How is an expression constructed?" and not "Why is it so?".Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
To answer "why?" you have to go deep into the history of the language. Native speakers are usually unable to answer "why?", all what they can do for you is to show "how".
But actually I do not mind discussing "why's" for the reason of curiosity. However, it does not affect language learning.
Adverbs are unchangeable. The concept of case is not applicable to them! What you are asking here is a sort of grammar nonsense (don't take it personally).Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
I do not understand why you provide the example of "many of something" and you're still surprised that Russian works the same way with its "много + Genetive Plural"? You should not be surprized then.Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
If you say, "пять столов" (five tables), does it surprize you?
The same is if you say "количество столов" (a quantity of tables), множество столов (plenty of tables), сколько столов? (how many tables) etc. - quantities are expressed using the genitive (QUANTITY of SOMETHING in plural).
Много is just the same word as any of the listed above: много столов.
BTW, it is English which is illogical, cause sometimes it uses "of" and sometimes it skips it:
dozens of books, hundreds of books, thousands of books, a lot of books, a great number of books, quantity of books, but
five books, ten books, a hundred books, many books, how many books.
I would prefer using "of" everytime :) And that exactly corresponds the Russian genitive.
PS
Несколько столов (a few tables, several tables); мало столов (few tables, insufficient amount of tables); достаточно столов (enough (of) tables); куча столов (lit.: a pile of tables - a great number of tables) - I hope you can see the pattern now.
I must correct some of the previous answers.Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
много is an adverb only when used with verbs. For example "много работать" - to work much.
When много is used with a noun it is a cardinal numeral (at list my vocabulary says so) and follows the rule that cardinal numerals (with some exceptions) require genitive after them.
As for intuitive reason... just get used to the language and you will find the reason. It works only that way. As well as in English. :D
Now this is a problem indeed. Let's try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valda
много машин - there are some cars and they are many. That's it. Just many (or "a lot of").
многие машины - this phrase always implies that there are other cars beside mentioned. It is "a big part of the whole" rather than just "many". Often it is used like "многие машины из тех, что были угнаны позавчера" that is "many of".
So.
По улице ехало много машин. - It is about the street, that contains some cars.
Многие машины ехали по улице. - It is about cars you were talking before. Many of them were moving along the street.
Though sometimes this difference is slight and expressions can be interchanged... but sometimes no.
From my point of view, it affects the language learning because if someone understands the specific reason about why a word is used the way it is he/she can remember it much more easily and can attain a deep knowladge about the grammer rapidly. So that is why i am digging into whys. Hows are also important but it means to memorize not to understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
It is infact not a grammar nonsense. What I tried to ask was, if i am not some adverbs are formed up from adjectives. For example хороший – хорошо, трудный – трудно. I do not know if all adverbs are like this but thought that Много would also be formed up from an adjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
I provide the example because it makes the reason why it is used that why so that it is easy to spread that knowladge rapidly to the other areas of the grammer. Language is a logical thing. Each and everything must have a reason and form my point of view is improtant about ones learning curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
That is true for constructed languages like Lojban or Esperanto, but for natural languages?Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
In Russian language there are more exceptions from rules than rules themselves!
But from my point of view, just becuase Russian have more expectations when compared with other languages (and I do not think so those expectations are about the main grammatical structures, I think they are more about how the plurals are formed and how the verbs are declined etc) one must not learn the rules and whys of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inego
For example, in Russian you count years like this: Один год, два года, три года, четыре года, пять лет, шесть лет.
I doubt that knowing WHY another word is used for plural of "год" above four (and not for all of them, because 21 - 24, 31 - 34 and so on will be "год(а)" again) — although an explanation exists — will help you to master Russian faster or more efficiently than just accepting those damned exceptions as they are.
So, your question is gradually developing to debating :)
The idea you are promoting would be excellent in an ideal world. But the world is not ideal :)Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
On the one hand, you are right: everything CAN be explained (at least, in theory).
On the other hand, as I told already, very often native speakers do not know an explanation. You have to know how the language developed in its history in order to understand anything logically. And that gives many times more information for you than just to learn its modern state. You can learn the modern state of a language more or less easily, but you will never be able to understand why it is this particular way and not any other way, unless you study the historical linguistics.
Finally, different languages are different ways of thinking. What seems to be logical for a native speapker, does not seem logical for a foreigner.
You know, my wife is currently learning English. She is at the very beginning level yet. Recently she has learned the usage of "OF", and then she made some grammar exercises.
And she asked me a question very "symmetrical" to what you are asking:
I understand that I need "of" in the phrase like "in the shade of green trees" (в тени зелёных деревьев), since it is genitive in the Russian phrase (деревьев).
But why shouldn't I use the "of" in the phrase like "five tall green trees" (пять высоких зелёных деревьев)? It is the same genitive there! Don't I need "of" in English?
What is nonsense - is to ask about the grammar case of an adverb. Adverbs do not have cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
Now some people say "много" is not really an adverb. But it is a question of terminology. No matter what we call it, it behaves as an adverb.
Now, what you are saying (хороший – хорошо, трудный – трудно) is correct! Many adjective have related adverbs. The same as многий - много. Very similar!
But you can talk about the case of an adjective (хороший, хорошего, хорошему, хорошим, хорошем) and you cannot talk about the case of an adverb. It makes no sense to ask "what case is хорошо". I hope you get my point.
Impulse, I am sorry, but I did not understand your example with "a lot of". Your explanation does not make much sense to me. I just know that I have to say "a lot OF cars" but "many cars" without "of". The same way as I remember I have to say "hundreds OF cars" but "one hundred cars". It does not seem logical to me, but I've got used to it nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
BTW, Impulse, I did provide an explanation to you (see my posts above with examples):
when you specify "quantity OF things", you normally use genitive plural (because of the "OF THINGS"). "Много" is a quantity. Does it make sense to you?
First of all I would like to point out that I am not trying to debate. I just like to learn a rule togather with it’s reason. Because I hate to memorize things . If I can use the why of a rule it sticks to my mind much more rapidly than if I just try to memorize it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
It is ofcourse impossible to dig into the historical facts about the whys of every rule in Russian grammar. But I try to figure out the most I can.
Yes I understand your examples. Thank you.
Why? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Inego
In old Russian (maybe, 11th century or alike) nouns had 3 grammar numbers: Singular, Dual and Plural. And yes, that was the way all the Indo-European languages developed. The dual number was lost in most of the languages by merging with plural, however it still exists in a few of them (Scottish Gaelic, Slovenian, Sorbian and Frisian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_(grammatical_number)).Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
The traces of the dual form are still found in Russian: рукав (a sleeve) has an unusual form of plural: рукава (instead of the expected рукавы, which does not exist). The same is with глаз (eye): глаза (and not глазы). The same is with ухо (ear): уши (and not уха, as it should be expected for the neutral gender). There are some other similar examples.
The explanation is that all those forms (рукава, глаза, уши) which are now considered as plurals, used to be the dual forms (old Russian: рукав (1) - рукава (2), рукавы (>2), the latter was rarely used since sleeves usually come in pairs, the same with eyes, ears...).
But the old Russian had separate dual and plural forms for every countable noun.
That is why, the number "два" (2) was originally used with the dual form: два года (two years), два города (2 towns), два моста (2 bridges).
So, what's wrong with "три", "четыре"? They are not dual, they should require plural. Yes! But the language sometimes changes obeying "the rule of analogy". People started using 3 and 4 the same way as 2. And that usage has become generally accepted.
But then Russian lost its dual number. However, the nominative dual form just occasionally was very similar to the genitive singular. People continued saying "два года, три года, четыре года", but this form was re-interpreted as the genitive singular. Because people forgot it was dual.
And what's with 5, 6 and greater? Those words (пять, шесть, ...) were originally nouns, not numerals. Therefeore, they required Plural Genitive (the same way as you say "a lot OF cars", "hundreds OF cars"). So, we say "пять городов, пять мостов, шесть городов, шесть мостов".
As to "год", I think someone else can explain why "годов" was replaced by "лет". I do not know an explanation for this word. :)
Due to some reason, people started counting "summers" instead of "years". By its origin, "лет" is genitive plural of "лето" (summer).
Is there another one, for "He visited (much)/(a lot) of the country" Он посетил много страны. ?? Or is that one многое? Он посетил многое страны.Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
Он побывал во многих частях/городах этой страны.
Он посетил много городов страны.
Thank you! I can see that what I was asking doesn't have any sense.
Thanks for this explanation. I am at work and I cannot look this in detail. But when I go home I will read it carefully. I will have some questions regarding that. Talk later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
This is really a good explanation thanks a lot.
With 1 > nominative singular form of the noun is used.
2-3-4 > genetive singular form of the noun is used.
5-6-7 and so on > genetive plural form of the noun is used.
Is that right or am I missing something?
Exactly! You got it right!Quote:
Originally Posted by impulse
And then, more precisely:
Nominative Singular is used with 1 as well as with any number which ends in 1 (21, 31, ..., 91, 101, 121, ...) except those which end in 11 (since 11 is "одиннадцать" and it does not end in "один"): один стол, двадцать один стол, тридцать один стол, ..., девяность один стол, сто один стол, сто двадцать один стол...
Genitive Singular: 2, 3, 4, 22, 23, 24, 32, 33, 34, ..., 102, 103, 104, 122, 123, 124... (the exceptions are numbers ending in 12, 13, 14 since they do not end in "два", "три", "четыре"): два стола, три стола, четыре стола, двадцать два стола, тридцать три стола, сто четыре стола...
Genitive Plural: all other numbers
5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 25, 26, ..., 100, 105, 106, ..., 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116...:
пять столов, шесть столов, семь столов, восемь столов, девять столов, десять столов, одиннадцать столов, двенадцать столов, тринадцать столов, четырнадцать столов, пятнадцать столов, шестнадцать столов, семнадцать столов, восемнадцать столов, девятнадцать столов, двадцать столов, ..., сто столов, ..., тысяча столов, ... миллион столов.
The rule of the thumb is: check the very last word of a compound numeral. It governs the noun.
Thanks alot. That is the clearest explanation I got about this topic.
I still am not studied about the genative case so I cannot use this rule effectively but at least it is carved into my mind.
Is it hard to form genative singular/plural nouns? I must have a look at that.
From MR site: Genitive Case of Russian Nouns
он много где был в странеQuote:
Originally Posted by Seraph
он много куда ездил по стране
Боб, you're so good at all this that you probably know about the additional formations:Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
"one hundred of the cars" so when it is a sub-quantity, it is genitive, with 'of'. "Many of the cars were old."
"five tall green trees" => "five of the tall green trees" a sub-quantity. So there is a specificity thing happening.
It depends on what the emphasis is on.
"Take five men and search the field." vs "Take five of the men and search the field."
A more interesting question: why do we say the city of London, but uncle John (not the uncle of John, for example)?
Thanks, Seraph! Yes, I knew that, although I did not want to over-complicate my examples :)
However, this use of "OF" (sounds funny - of "OF") conveys a bit different meaning, and it is rendered in Russian by means of "из".
"Ten cars" is "десять машин" in Russian. While "ten of the cars" is "десять из машин" (but usually with an extra definition: "десять из этих машин", "десять из тех машин", "десять из наших машин" etc.). This is how we express sub-quantity, or extract from a set.
In English: "one hundred cars" but "hundreds of cars". Both do not mean sub-quantity. In Russian: "сто машин" (сотня машин) and "сотни машин".
However, "hundreds of the cars" is "сотни из (тех/этих/новых...) машин".
Really! But I am not sure if native speakers understand our logic behind that. The expected answer is probably "uncle of John" is "John's uncle", but "uncle John" is someone else's uncle :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus