Thread: A small question about много

Hello

Each and every document I read about the Russian grammer suggests that the word "много" takes the genative case. Is that because the word "много" it self is the genetive form of the adjective "многий" ?

Is it possible to write "многие машины" to mean "many cars" . What does "многая машина"mean. The usage "многий" must be very limited our maybe just with plural forms of the verbs ? Could you give some examples of it's usage?

Thank you.

No. The word много is an adverb. Adverbs do not decline in Russian. The adverb много governs the genitive.
The word многий is an adjective and it declines. It agrees with a noun in case.
You can not say ‘многая машина’ because this adjective is used in plural only. So you can say:
1) много машин
2) многие машины

The variant (1) can be used only as a subject or a direct object in the sentence. In the former case the verb can be used either in neuter singular or (sometimes) in plural form.
По дороге едет(or едут) много машин. (subject)
Я вижу много машин. (object)

The variant (2) can be used in any case (but only in plural):
Многие машины так и не были проданы. (nominative)
У многих машин передние колёса являются ведущими. (genitive)
По многим машинам мы уже нашли информацию. (dative)
На многие машины установлена система навигации. (accusative)
Со многими машинами случилось то же самое. (instrumentalis)
Во многих машинах нет кондиционера. (locative)

"Много" is not a genitive form of adjective "многий" — these words are different parts of speech with the same root.
"Многий" is used only in plural form, "многие". It means "many" (or, to be precise, "many of"):
Многие машины в России — с правым рулем. Many (of) cars in Russia are RHD vehicles.

DAMN! I came the the second — again!

1) много машин
2) многие машины

какая разница?

Originally Posted by impulse

Each and every document I read about the Russian grammer suggests that the word "много" takes the genative case.

Yes, it's right. It is as if you said "many of something".
In English, you say: "Hundreds of cars", "A lot of cars", "Lots of cars", "Plenty of cars"...
In Russian we say the same way. In addition, we also say "Five of cars", "Ten of cars" etc.
Complare: сотни машин, много машин, множество машин, пять машин, десять машин etc.

Originally Posted by impulse

Is that because the word "много" it self is the genetive form of the adjective "многий"?

No, it is not. "Много" is not a genitive form. And it is not even an adjective. It is more like an adverb, and "много" is unchangeable.
The genitive form of "многий" would be "многого".

Originally Posted by impulse

Is it possible to write "многая машина" to mean "many cars"?

No, it is impossible. "Многий" requires any countable noun to be in plural. "Многие машины" is possible.

However, there is a subtle difference between "много машин" and "многие машины". They are not interchangeable.
"Много машин" is just "a lot of cars": На улице много машин.
"Многие машины" is "many of the cars (but not all of them)". Compare:

На улице много машин. Многие машины совсем новые. - There are lots of cars in the street. Many of them are quite new.

PS Actually, you can say "многие из + GEN" or just "многие". It means the same. The following versions are interchangeable:
Многие из машин совсем новые.
Многие машины совсем новые.
Многие из них совсем новые.
Многие совсем новые. (If it is clear the conversation was about cars).

I understand thanks. So it does not have an adjective form?

Много is an adverb.
Многий is an adjective.
There is a slight difference in their meaning as explained above.

Sometimes (but not always) they are interchangeable:

Он посетил много стран. - He visited a lot of countries.
Он посетил многие страны. - He visited many of the countries.

I understand that but there must be a reason why Много takes genetive case. This adverb must be the genetive form of a word. Maybe it has the nominative, the accusative, dative etc equivalents? Like in English (if I am not mistaken) "lot" means "many of something". So it is used as "a lot of cars". My point is "a lot of" in English has a reason for the way it is used so Много must also have a reason.

Originally Posted by impulse

I understand that but there must be a reason why Много takes genetive case.

I do not understand your concern. When learning another language, I would like to know "How is an expression constructed?" and not "Why is it so?".
To answer "why?" you have to go deep into the history of the language. Native speakers are usually unable to answer "why?", all what they can do for you is to show "how".

But actually I do not mind discussing "why's" for the reason of curiosity. However, it does not affect language learning.

Originally Posted by impulse

This adverb must be the genetive form of a word. Maybe it has the nominative, the accusative, dative etc equivalents?

Adverbs are unchangeable. The concept of case is not applicable to them! What you are asking here is a sort of grammar nonsense (don't take it personally).

Originally Posted by impulse

Like in English (if I am not mistaken) "lot" means "many of something". So it is used as "a lot of cars". My point is "a lot of" in English has a reason for the way it is used so Много must also have a reason.

I do not understand why you provide the example of "many of something" and you're still surprised that Russian works the same way with its "много + Genetive Plural"? You should not be surprized then.

If you say, "пять столов" (five tables), does it surprize you?
The same is if you say "количество столов" (a quantity of tables), множество столов (plenty of tables), сколько столов? (how many tables) etc. - quantities are expressed using the genitive (QUANTITY of SOMETHING in plural).
Много is just the same word as any of the listed above: много столов.

BTW, it is English which is illogical, cause sometimes it uses "of" and sometimes it skips it:
dozens of books, hundreds of books, thousands of books, a lot of books, a great number of books, quantity of books, but
five books, ten books, a hundred books, many books, how many books.

I would prefer using "of" everytime And that exactly corresponds the Russian genitive.

PS
Несколько столов (a few tables, several tables); мало столов (few tables, insufficient amount of tables); достаточно столов (enough (of) tables); куча столов (lit.: a pile of tables - a great number of tables) - I hope you can see the pattern now.

Originally Posted by impulse

I understand that but there must be a reason why Много takes genetive case. This adverb must be the genetive form of a word. Maybe it has the nominative, the accusative, dative etc equivalents? Like in English (if I am not mistaken) "lot" means "many of something". So it is used as "a lot of cars". My point is "a lot of" in English has a reason for the way it is used so Много must also have a reason.

I must correct some of the previous answers.

много is an adverb only when used with verbs. For example "много работать" - to work much.
When много is used with a noun it is a cardinal numeral (at list my vocabulary says so) and follows the rule that cardinal numerals (with some exceptions) require genitive after them.

As for intuitive reason... just get used to the language and you will find the reason. It works only that way. As well as in English.

Originally Posted by Valda

1) много машин
2) многие машины
какая разница?

Now this is a problem indeed. Let's try.

много машин - there are some cars and they are many. That's it. Just many (or "a lot of").
многие машины - this phrase always implies that there are other cars beside mentioned. It is "a big part of the whole" rather than just "many". Often it is used like "многие машины из тех, что были угнаны позавчера" that is "many of".

So.

По улице ехало много машин. - It is about the street, that contains some cars.
Многие машины ехали по улице. - It is about cars you were talking before. Many of them were moving along the street.

Though sometimes this difference is slight and expressions can be interchanged... but sometimes no.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

I do not understand your concern. When learning another language, I would like to know "How is an expression constructed?" and not "Why is it so?".
To answer "why?" you have to go deep into the history of the language. Native speakers are usually unable to answer "why?", all what they can do for you is to show "how".
But actually I do not mind discussing "why's" for the reason of curiosity. However, it does not affect language learning. .

From my point of view, it affects the language learning because if someone understands the specific reason about why a word is used the way it is he/she can remember it much more easily and can attain a deep knowladge about the grammer rapidly. So that is why i am digging into whys. Hows are also important but it means to memorize not to understand.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Adverbs are unchangeable. The concept of case is not applicable to them! What you are asking here is a sort of grammar nonsense (don't take it personally). .

It is infact not a grammar nonsense. What I tried to ask was, if i am not some adverbs are formed up from adjectives. For example хороший – хорошо, трудный – трудно. I do not know if all adverbs are like this but thought that Много would also be formed up from an adjective.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

I do not understand why you provide the example of "many of something" and you're still surprised that Russian works the same way with its "много + Genetive Plural"? You should not be surprized then. .

I provide the example because it makes the reason why it is used that why so that it is easy to spread that knowladge rapidly to the other areas of the grammer. Language is a logical thing. Each and everything must have a reason and form my point of view is improtant about ones learning curve.

Originally Posted by impulse

Language is a logical thing

That is true for constructed languages like Lojban or Esperanto, but for natural languages?
In Russian language there are more exceptions from rules than rules themselves!

Originally Posted by Inego

That is true for constructed languages like Lojban or Esperanto, but for natural languages?
In Russian language there are more exceptions from rules than rules themselves!

But from my point of view, just becuase Russian have more expectations when compared with other languages (and I do not think so those expectations are about the main grammatical structures, I think they are more about how the plurals are formed and how the verbs are declined etc) one must not learn the rules and whys of it.

For example, in Russian you count years like this: Один год, два года, три года, четыре года, пять лет, шесть лет.
I doubt that knowing WHY another word is used for plural of "год" above four (and not for all of them, because 21 - 24, 31 - 34 and so on will be "год(а)" again) — although an explanation exists — will help you to master Russian faster or more efficiently than just accepting those damned exceptions as they are.

So, your question is gradually developing to debating

Originally Posted by impulse

From my point of view, it affects the language learning because if someone understands the specific reason about why a word is used the way it is he/she can remember it much more easily and can attain a deep knowladge about the grammer rapidly. So that is why i am digging into whys. Hows are also important but it means to memorize not to understand.

The idea you are promoting would be excellent in an ideal world. But the world is not ideal
On the one hand, you are right: everything CAN be explained (at least, in theory).
On the other hand, as I told already, very often native speakers do not know an explanation. You have to know how the language developed in its history in order to understand anything logically. And that gives many times more information for you than just to learn its modern state. You can learn the modern state of a language more or less easily, but you will never be able to understand why it is this particular way and not any other way, unless you study the historical linguistics.

Finally, different languages are different ways of thinking. What seems to be logical for a native speapker, does not seem logical for a foreigner.

You know, my wife is currently learning English. She is at the very beginning level yet. Recently she has learned the usage of "OF", and then she made some grammar exercises.
And she asked me a question very "symmetrical" to what you are asking:
I understand that I need "of" in the phrase like "in the shade of green trees" (в тени зелёных деревьев), since it is genitive in the Russian phrase (деревьев).
But why shouldn't I use the "of" in the phrase like "five tall green trees" (пять высоких зелёных деревьев)? It is the same genitive there! Don't I need "of" in English?

Originally Posted by impulse

It is infact not a grammar nonsense. What I tried to ask was, if i am not some adverbs are formed up from adjectives. For example хороший – хорошо, трудный – трудно. I do not know if all adverbs are like this but thought that Много would also be formed up from an adjective.

What is nonsense - is to ask about the grammar case of an adverb. Adverbs do not have cases.
Now some people say "много" is not really an adverb. But it is a question of terminology. No matter what we call it, it behaves as an adverb.

Now, what you are saying (хороший – хорошо, трудный – трудно) is correct! Many adjective have related adverbs. The same as многий - много. Very similar!

But you can talk about the case of an adjective (хороший, хорошего, хорошему, хорошим, хорошем) and you cannot talk about the case of an adverb. It makes no sense to ask "what case is хорошо". I hope you get my point.

Originally Posted by impulse

I provide the example because it makes the reason why it is used that why so that it is easy to spread that knowladge rapidly to the other areas of the grammer. Language is a logical thing. Each and everything must have a reason and form my point of view is improtant about ones learning curve.

Impulse, I am sorry, but I did not understand your example with "a lot of". Your explanation does not make much sense to me. I just know that I have to say "a lot OF cars" but "many cars" without "of". The same way as I remember I have to say "hundreds OF cars" but "one hundred cars". It does not seem logical to me, but I've got used to it nonetheless.

BTW, Impulse, I did provide an explanation to you (see my posts above with examples):
when you specify "quantity OF things", you normally use genitive plural (because of the "OF THINGS"). "Много" is a quantity. Does it make sense to you?

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

BTW, Impulse, I did provide an explanation to you (see my posts above with examples):
when you specify "quantity OF things", you normally use genitive plural (because of the "OF THINGS"). "Много" is a quantity. Does it make sense to you?

First of all I would like to point out that I am not trying to debate. I just like to learn a rule togather with it’s reason. Because I hate to memorize things . If I can use the why of a rule it sticks to my mind much more rapidly than if I just try to memorize it.
It is ofcourse impossible to dig into the historical facts about the whys of every rule in Russian grammar. But I try to figure out the most I can.
Yes I understand your examples. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Inego

For example, in Russian you count years like this: Один год, два года, три года, четыре года, пять лет, шесть лет.
I doubt that knowing WHY another word is used for plural of "год" above four (and not for all of them, because 21 - 24, 31 - 34 and so on will be "год(а)" again) — although an explanation exists — will help you to master Russian faster or more efficiently than just accepting those damned exceptions as they are.

Why?