Thread: Russian spelling

In Spanish there are some rules about when "b" (and not "v": Barcelona, Valencia, with the same sound) must be written; as well as when "g" (and not "j": Gerona, Jávea, with the same sound again) must be used or when "h" (with no sound) must be present. Even to help this there are some funny phrases; for instance "Must be used "v" after the syllabes: Dijole en clase con mofa... [He said to him with mockery...] Di- jo- le en cla- se- ..." and so in the other cases. However in Russian apart from the few rules rather phonetical of г. х. ж and е, и, ы little more is available. Really there is no additional rule for helping where в or б; и or ы must be used apart from this last case for г. х. ж ?
I have searched in the net with no possitive result up to now.
Thank you.

Originally Posted by radomir

In Spanish there are some rules about when "b" (and not "v": Barcelona, Valencia, with the same sound) must be written; as well as when "g" (and not "j": Gerona, Jávea, with the same sound again) must be used or when "h" (with no sound) must be present. Even to help this there are some funny phrases; for instance "Must be used "v" after the syllabes: Dijole en clase con mofa... [He said to him with mockery...] Di- jo- le en cla- se- ..." and so in the other cases. However in Russian apart from the few rules rather phonetical of г. х. ж and е, и, ы little more is available. Really there is no additional rule for helping where в or б; и or ы must be used apart from this last case for г. х. ж ?
I have searched in the net with no possitive result up to now.
Thank you.

As for B or Б - many latin or greek words that came to the language long ago (and they are mostly names) have B (pronouncing "V") instead of B in original - варвар, Василий, Варфоломей, вакханалия, Вениамин, Вифлием.
Though when this name are translated from other languages we write them phonetically close to the language we took: Василий, но Бэзил, Базилио, Базиль; Вениамин, но Бенджамен; Бартоломью, Барбара и т.д.

Г, Х, Ж are chosen also historically or close to original transcription: Женева, Гибралтар, Ямайка. Spanish names are written with Х: Хесус, Хосе, though the same name translated from English will be Джозеф, Italian - Джузеппе, German - Йозеф, from Bible - Иосиф, the same in Russian (Stalin for example), but there is another Russian variant - Осип.

Originally Posted by radomir

Really there is no additional rule for helping where в or б; и or ы must be used apart from this last case for г. х. ж ?

The question is strange. What is a spelling rule? It is a rule which explains how to SPELL a word in case when you cannot detect it from the pronunciation. I.e. if there are some letters which are pronounced the same, you need a spelling rule for them. For example, in English "cat" and "kite" the initial consonant is the same. Or in English "late" and "wait" the vowel sound is the same.

As to "в" and "б", they are two distinct sounds in Russian, and no one is expected to confuse them. So, they are spelt just the way they are pronounced: compare "ваза" and "база". The same is true for "и" and "ы": they are two distinct vowels, e.g.: "бил" and "был" - each word is spelt just as it is pronounced.

The only exception is you have to learn that you never write "ы" after "ж" and "ш", you should write "и" instead. But in pronunciation, there is always "ы" after those consonants: we write "шил, жир", but we pronounce "шыл, жыр" etc.

And one more thing: we also pronounce only "ы" after "ц", but some words are spelt with "ы" and others are spelt with "и", e.g.: цыган (pronounced "цыган"), but цирк (pronounced "цырк"), you just have to memorize it.

In all other cases, it is just phonetic.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

The question is strange. What is a spelling rule? It is a rule which explains how to SPELL a word in case when you cannot detect it from t

In all other cases, it is just phonetic.

It is just phonetic? . Let's see: хорошó , хaрошó, хaрaшó or хорaшó ? And with some other vowels one could find also some cases of ambiguity. There is place for some rules, with unstressed vowels but... of course it is of no use for Russian speaking people.
Thank you.

Originally Posted by radomir

It is just phonetic? . Let's see: хорошó , хaрошó, хaрaшó or хорaшó ? And with some other vowels one could find also some cases of ambiguity. There is place for some rules, with unstressed vowels but... of course it is of no use for Russian speaking people.
Thank you.

The unstressed vowels like in the example are pronounced neutral, close to "e" in English "sister". In some dialects you can hear precisely "хОрОшО" (Volga region) or some people from Caucasian republics can say "хАрАшо", but in common variant of language it is neutral.
The main rule in prononciation should be the following: there are some common pronociations of letter's combinations (сч=щ, тся = ца, стн=сн, е unstressed =и etc) but you can pronounce them just like they are written and it won't be a mistake, it will be just a slight accent.

Хорошо




Вы скажете: бывают в жизни шутки,
Поглаживая бороду свою...
Но тихому еврейскому малютке
Пока ещё живется, как в раю.
Пока ему совсем еще не худо,
А даже и совсем наоборот.
И папа, обалдевший от Талмуда,
Ему такую песенку поёт:

Припев:
«Всё будет хорошо, к чему такие спешки?
Всё будет хорошо, и в дамки выйдут пешки!
И будет шум и гам, и будет счёт деньгам.
И дождички пойдут по четвергам».

Но все растёт на этом белом свете.
И вот уже в компании друзей
Все чаще вспоминают наши дети,
Что нам давно пора «ауфвидерзейн».
И вот уже загнал папаша где-то
Все бебихи мамаши и костюм,
Ведь Моне надо шляпу из вельвета —
Влюбился Моня в Сару Розенблюм.

Припев.

Вы знаете, что значит пожениться,
Какие получаются дела.
Но почему-то вместо единицы
Она ему двойняшек родила.
Теперь уже ни чихни, ни засмейся —
Шипит она, холера, как сифон.
И Моня, ухватив себя за пейсы,
Заводит потихоньку патефон.

Припев

Пятнадцать лет он жил на честном слове,
Худее, чем портняжная игла,
Но старость, как погромщик в Кишинёве,
Ударила его из-за угла.
И вот пошли различные хворобы:
Печёнка, селезёнка, ишиас...
Лекарство все равно не помогло бы,
А песня помогает всякий раз.

Припев.

Но таки да случаются удачи.
И вот уже последний добрый путь:
Две старые ободранные клячи
Везут его немножко отдохнуть.
Всегда переживает нас привычка.
И может быть, наверно, потому
Воробышек — малюсенькая птичка —
Чирикает на кладбище ему:

Припев.

«Всё будет хорошо, к чему такие спешки?
Всё будет хорошо, и в дамки выйдут пешки!
И будет шум и гам, и будет счёт деньгам.
И дождички пойдут по четвергам».

Originally Posted by radomir

It is just phonetic? . Let's see: хорошó , хaрошó, хaрaшó or хорaшó ? And with some other vowels one could find also some cases of ambiguity. There is place for some rules, with unstressed vowels but... of course it is of no use for Russian speaking people.
Thank you.

I was answering your specific question about "в or б; и or ы":
Really there is no additional rule for helping where в or б; и or ы must be used apart from this last case for г. х. ж ?

That is why I explained some spelling rules of и/ы (after ш, ж, and after ц), and then added: "In all other cases, it is just phonetic." (it was written referring to и and ы).
There was nothing about unstressed vowels in your original question.

BTW, I did not understand what you meant by "apart from this last case for г. х. ж"? I.e., I did not get what was the issue with г, х, ж?

Originally Posted by radomir

It is just phonetic? . Let's see: хорошó , хaрошó, хaрaшó or хорaшó ? And with some other vowels one could find also some cases of ambiguity. There is place for some rules, with unstressed vowels but... of course it is of no use for Russian speaking people.
Thank you.

It is of no use for foreigners. We study those rules for many years at school. The second o in хорошо can be easily checked with the word хорОший, while the first one must be learnt by heart.