Thread: Instrumental Case and "с"

Privet.

From my limited experience I learned that the Insturmental case is used in structures such as:
1. Студент пишет ручкой
2. я разговаривал с тобой
3. водка с лимоном
4. я пошёл сестрой
5. я пошёл со своей сестрой

My question is why in some cases we use "с" and in other cases we just leave it? Is there any rule?

1. Student write with pen.
2. You _and_ i are talking.
3. Vodka _and_ lemon
4. You need c here. So. I _and_ my sister are going.
5. Same as 4.
is it more clear now?

Because when you say "Я пошел сестрой" it looks like your sister is a chess-man and you move the piece. When you don't use "c" it implies that a subject manages (via a verb) an object (in instrumental) directly.
Я пошел королем = "I moved the king", like in a chess game
Я ударил по столу рукой = "I hit the table with my hand" (ударил рукой, рукой is instrumental)
Я воспользуюсь карандашом = "I'll use a pencil"
That's why this case is named "instrumental", because an object (in instrumental) implies sort of a tool.
When you use "c" it means that a subject and an object (in instrumental) act together or maybe an object is a part of the subject.

In addition to what was explained above.

["с" + instrumental] and [instrumental with no preposition] have completely different meanings. Some examples to illustrate the difference:

Он работает молотком. - He works with a hammer (by means of a hammer, using a hammer). Here "молоток" is a tool he uses to perform the action.
Он работает с улыбкой. - He works with a smile. "Улыбка" is not a tool, is it?

Он помог мне с улыбкой. - He helped me with a smile. (He was smiling while helping me).
Он помог мне улыбкой. - He helped me with his smile. (It is his smile which helped me. He smiled, and that helped me).

The instrumental can express a means of transportation as well:

Он путешествовал самолётом. - He travelled by plane. ("самолёт" is a tool he used for travelling).
Он путешествовал с самолётом. - He travelled with a plane. (Probably, he might have a small toy plane in his baggage).

The instrumental can express a role someone plays:

Я работаю инженером. - I work as an engineer (I am an engineer).
Я работаю с инженером. - I work with an engineer. (An engineer and I are doing some work together).

Он был архитектором. - He was an architect. (He played a role of an architect).
Он был с архитектором. - He was (together) with an architect (somewhere).

Based on the reasoning of the rule "tool - not tool" the following expressions should be correct:
1. он работает с энтузиазмом.
2. я жду с терпением.
3. Он пошел со своим братом.
My question is: Do the Russian sometimes ommit the "c" because the following word starts with "C"
Naprimer: Он пошел с Силвертером

When you pronunce С Сильвестером fast, these С sounds merge in one (you speak it this way). But C is still there.

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

Based on the reasoning of the rule "tool - not tool" the following expressions should be correct:
1. он работает с энтузиазмом.
2. я жду с терпением.
3. Он пошел со своим братом.

Perfect!

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

My question is: Do the Russian sometimes ommit the "c" because the following word starts with "C"
Naprimer: Он пошел с Силвертером

In writing - never!
In pronunciation, two "с" merge into a "long consonant", in careful speech it sounds distinctly due to its "length", in fast speech yes it can be hardly noticeable.

BTW, if a word starts with "с" + another consonant, then "с" is mostly replaced with "со":

с сестрой,
с солью,
с сахаром, but
со стаканом,
со светом,
со снегом,
со страусом...

Spasibo

Spasibo. The "со" is pronounced like "sa" or "so"

The preposition ‘со’ is almost always unstressed, so it is pronounced as ‘са’.
But there are some extremely rare cases when it is stressed, e.g. ‘сжить со́ свету’ (‘to worry smb. to death’). Don't bother about them.

So there is not a general rule that says when to stress the four prepositions: со, до, об and от.
Лично всегда я изпользую произношение "sa","da", "aб" и "ат" потому что думаю что русские используют это произношение чаще. правильно?

Originally Posted by Antonio1986

So there is not a general rule that says when to stress the four prepositions: со, до, об and от.
Лично всегда я изпользую произношение "sa","da", "aб" и "ат" потому что думаю что русские используют это произношение чаще. правильно?

Prepositions are rarely stressed, they are normally unstressed. The rules of vowel reduction are applied to them. At the word initial position and in the prestressed syllable they are pronounced with [a], in other positions the vowel is realized as a shwa.

And I would add, the stressed prepositions (with unstressed nouns) mostly occur in some fixed set phrases. Unfortunately, there is no way to predict it.
And yes, I agree you do not need to bother unless you are curious in this specific phenomenon. Just pronounce all mono-syllabic prepositions unstressed.