The German keep silent

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May 12th, 2006, 03:37 PM
Vladi

The German keep silent

Surely what I say will be an obviousness for Russians, but since this page is read by people from all over the world... Many years ago it was surprising to me the word "немецктй" applied to German people with no "apparent" connection with the previous and next words in the Dictionary, beeing, as they are the words "германец", "германский". This was the reason that was given to me by a russian philologist: As it is known Katherine the Great / die Grosse (sorry for the bad joke, I don't know if she was fat or slim) invited a certain number of German families to colonize some territories, so did the spanish king Charles III at the same time, but obviously in Spain. When the Russian addressed to these Germans, they simply didn't answer (they didn't know Russian) and keep silent, what is the meaning of "немецктй", "who becomes dumb". In the Middle Age various Caliphs of muslim kingdoms in Spain had a personal guard named "Los Mudos", "The Dumb", that was composed by persons not speaking arab nor spanish languages, so beeing not able to comunicate with the rest of citizens. Surely to avoid them taking part in the continuos plots that finally, maked the Muslims collapsed in Spain, more than the push of Northern christian kingdoms, only slightly more unified than the Muslims. :idea:
May 12th, 2006, 04:56 PM
Rtyom

"Los Mudos" - :lol:
May 12th, 2006, 07:10 PM
Vladi

Some errors in my message

As you have seen in my previous are some errors in Engles: "continuos" for "continuous", "maked" for "made" and perhaps any other. Sorry, sorry :cry:
May 12th, 2006, 09:07 PM
Gerty

The original meaning of the word "немец" is not "dumb", but just "a mute"="немой". I guess, Russian peasants were nicer than Spanish caliphs. :D
May 12th, 2006, 10:54 PM
kalinka_vinnie

actually, in English "dumb"'s primary meaning is немой (mute), глупый is the colloquial meaning.

As in dumbfounded = speechless
May 13th, 2006, 02:49 AM
Бармалей

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

actually, in English "dumb"'s primary meaning is немой (mute), глупый is the colloquial meaning.

As in dumbfounded = speechless

I wholeheartedly disagree. I'm willing to bet that if you ask 100 people what dumb means, 85 of them will first assume that it means "stupid." You are right, that "dumb" is in fact used to refer to "mute" but there is no way in hell that this is the primary meaning for Joe Average.
May 13th, 2006, 02:54 AM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barmaley

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

actually, in English "dumb"'s primary meaning is немой (mute), глупый is the colloquial meaning.

As in dumbfounded = speechless

I wholeheartedly disagree. I'm willing to bet that if you ask 100 people what dumb means, 85 of them will first assume that it means "stupid." You are right, that "dumb" is in fact used to refer to "mute" but there is no way in hell that this is the primary meaning for Joe Average.

Dumb = stupid is a modern meaning, and also colloquial.
Dumb = mute is the original meaning.

If someone writes dumb in a formal letter, essay, etc. it is understood to mean mute, not stupid.
May 13th, 2006, 02:54 AM
kalinka_vinnie

Good for the average Joe! In this context it means "mute", that is what Vladi meant and not "stupid". That's all. Bicker all you want! :wink:
May 13th, 2006, 02:57 AM
TATY

The average Joe may by default understand Dumb as Stupid, but they will also know it means mute as well.
May 13th, 2006, 05:40 AM
Spiderkat

Here's some additional information to bring more water to the water mill.

Quote:

dumb
O.E. dumb "silent, unable to speak," from PIE *dheubh- "confusion, stupefaction, dizziness." O.E., Goth. (thumb) and O.N. (dumbr) forms meant only "mute, speechless;" in O.H.G. (thumb) it meant both this and "stupid," and in Mod.Ger. this latter became the only sense. Meaning "foolish, ignorant" was occasionally in Eng. from c.1323, but modern use (1823) comes from infl. of Ger. dumm. Applied to silent contrivances, hence dumbwaiter (1749). To dumb down is from 1933.

mute
c.1374, mewet, "silent," from O.Fr. muet, dim. of mut, mo, from L. mutus "silent, dumb," probably from imitative base *mu- (cf. Skt. mukah "dumb," Gk. myein "to be shut," of the mouth). Assimilated in form in 16c. to L. mutus. The verb is first attested 1861. Musical noun sense first recorded 1811, of stringed instruments, 1841, of horns.
May 13th, 2006, 05:52 AM
basurero

IMHO, calling someone dumb as in stupid doesn't happen that much and sounds pretty childish. There are a lot of better words to choose from for this purpose. :wink:
May 13th, 2006, 07:20 AM
TATY

Exactly. If an adult said to me "he's dumb" I'd think "mute", because the meaning "stupid" is a bit immature. But often "dumb" is used with deaf, so it's pretty obvious what it means. E.g. "He's deaf and dumb".

Plus there is:
Dumbfounded
Dumbstruck

Which both mean the same thing I think.
May 13th, 2006, 02:02 PM
Gerty

Anyways, it was good to know for average Gerty :D
May 13th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Бармалей

Quote:

Originally Posted by basurero

IMHO, calling someone dumb as in stupid doesn't happen that much and sounds pretty childish. There are a lot of better words to choose from for this purpose. :wink:

But without dumb in this context, how would you ever say such colorful things as "dumba$$." I hardly think you're calling someone a "mutea$$," and "stupida$$" just lacks a certain poetic ring to it!
May 13th, 2006, 03:20 PM
Remyisme

Re: The German keep silent

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vladi

"немецктй"

немецкий
May 13th, 2006, 04:44 PM
kalinka_vinnie

dumba$$ is its own word and has its own meaning. So is "dumby". You, Barmely, as an ESL learner, will just have to learn the separate meanings of all words containing "dumb" :lol:

Honestly, around here I never hear the word "dumb" about a person. "Stupid" is a much more powerful word.
May 13th, 2006, 06:59 PM
Rtyom

Is it possible to say 'stupida**'? :)
May 13th, 2006, 07:27 PM
challenger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Is it possible to say 'stupida**'? :)

IF I heard that, I would find it humorous.
May 13th, 2006, 10:59 PM
Бармалей

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

dumba$$ is its own word and has its own meaning. So is "dumby". You, Barmely, as an ESL learner, will just have to learn the separate meanings of all words containing "dumb" :lol:

Honestly, around here I never hear the word "dumb" about a person. "Stupid" is a much more powerful word.

Points:
a)Obviously dumbass derives from somewhere. It's not "its own word and its own meaning" anymore than "cookbook" is unrelated to the words "cook" and "book." Get a grip, man. You can feel free to admit that I'm right any second now...
b)"Dumby?" LOL. I think what you meant to say is "dummy" which is derived from "dumb." Only a dummy spells it "dumby" though.
c)I suppose the ESL comment is supposed to be a bit of humor. The only thing I find humorous, though, is that this post of yours was so wildly "dumb" and was written by a "dumb" person. And guess what? I don't mean "mute" in either of those contexts. The simple fact of the matter is that I am right, and you're utterly and completely wrong, and you are either too "dumb" or too petty to acknowledge it.
May 13th, 2006, 11:26 PM
kalinka_vinnie

Take a beer and relax, man! Brighten up, I thought you of all people could take a joke!

The point remains: dumb = person who can not speak (in this context). Can't we just all get along?
May 14th, 2006, 02:20 AM
basurero

Stupidaｓｓ - just say stupid aｓｓ and it sounds fine.
May 14th, 2006, 10:51 AM
Rtyom

Quote:

Originally Posted by basurero

Stupidaｓｓ - just say stupid aｓｓ and it sounds fine.

Not so fine foe the addressee. :)
May 14th, 2006, 10:53 AM
basurero

No it's great for them because it gives them an excuse to plough you. :)
May 14th, 2006, 10:59 AM
Rtyom

Plough? Is it slang?
May 14th, 2006, 01:36 PM
adoc

So let me clarify for myself. A dumba$$ is a person who doesn't suffer from digestion problems?
May 14th, 2006, 01:38 PM
translationsnmru

Re: The German keep silent

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vladi

This was the reason that was given to me by a russian philologist: As it is known Katherine the Great / die Grosse (sorry for the bad joke, I don't know if she was fat or slim) invited a certain number of German families to colonize some territories, so did the spanish king Charles III at the same time, but obviously in Spain. When the Russian addressed to these Germans, they simply didn't answer (they didn't know Russian) and keep silent, what is the meaning of "немецктй", "who becomes dumb".

This is only partially correct. In Russian, the word "немец" existed centuries before the reign of Katherine the Great as a general term for all foreigners from the Western Europe. One of official documents dating back to the reign of Alexei Mikhailovich mentions "Англицкие немцы" :).
May 14th, 2006, 11:02 PM
challenger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Plough? Is it slang?

Yes. You don't want to be ploughed.
May 14th, 2006, 11:50 PM
Бармалей

But I thought we were supposed to beat our swords into ploughshares! :D