genitive case

my god, the genitive case seems to be overused in russian. here is what i know so far, tell me if i'm correct:
you have to use the genitive case:

*after mnogo and the likes: mnogo predmetev

*when the direct object is a person: ia znaiu borisa i eleny

*after the verb khotet: i khotshu vody

*when the sentence is in the negative form (but it's more of a blur to me):
ia ne ponial etogo glagola.
but:
ia ne ponimaya etu frasu (i'm think when the direct object is feminine, you should use the accusative).
no idea about plural :|

*i'm lost with numbers:

2, 3, 4 umnix utchenika? (gen sing-gen plur because it's masculine)
2, 3, 4 belye rozy? (acc plur because it's feminine).
5 umnix utchenikov? (gen plur-gen plur)
5 belye rozy (acc plur)

no difference whether it's a person or an object, right?



there are other rules, some i'm sure i know, some i don't even know the existence:)

Yes, you are right. And of course there are more.

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when the direct object is a person: ia znaiu borisa i eleny

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Technically, this is the accusative for animates.

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Originally Posted by Pravit

Yes, you are right. And of course there are more.

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when the direct object is a person: ia znaiu borisa i eleny

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Technically, this is the accusative for animates.

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No no no

Ia znaiu Borisa i Elenu


Masculine Singular Animate Accusative = Genetive
Masculine Singular Inanimate Accusative = Nominative

Feminine Singular Inanimate & Animate Accusative = Accusative (e.g. У / Ю)

Masculine & Feminine Animate Plural = Genitive plural
Masculine & Feminine Inanimate Plural = Nominative plural

Basically, the "Genetive" is used when the direct object is Masculine Animate Singular.
In the plural both Femine and Masculine plurals look like the Genitive plural.

WHERE THE ACCUSATIVE LOOKS LIKE THE GENITIVES, BOLD IS USED

Masculine Inanimate: - футбол
Я люблю футбол - I love football
Я люблю футболы - I love footballs

Feminine Inanimate: - книга
Я люблю книгу - I love the book
Я люблю книги - I love books

Masculine Animate: - Этот студент
Я знаю этого студента - I know this male student
Я знаю зтих студентов - I know these male students

Feminine Animate: - Эта студентка
Я знаю эту студентку - I know this female student
Я знаю зтих студенток - I know these female students

The accusative for animate males has the same form as the genitive and there is no animate/inanimate distinction for females. This is for singular, of course.

BTW TATY, you do realize it's people like you and chaika that are the reason that I have to include about 1000 parentheses and exceptions in every grammar-related post, right? :)

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Originally Posted by possopo

*after the verb khotet: i khotshu vody

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This is because what you're saying is really: Я хочу немного воды. The немного is implied.

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Originally Posted by possopo

2, 3, 4 umnix utchenika? (gen sing-gen plur because it's masculine)
2, 3, 4 belye rozy? (acc plur because it's feminine).
5 umnix utchenikov? (gen plur-gen plur)
5 belye rozy (acc plur)

no difference whether it's a person or an object, right?

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First, it should be: 2, 3 ,4 белых розы and 5 белых роз. For genitive plural of feminine nouns ending in "a", just drop the "a".

Right, there's no difference. Here's a basic rundown of the rules:

1 = nominative singular
2-4 = genitive singular
5-20 = genitive plural
21 = nominative singular
22-24 = genitive singular
25-30 = genitive plural

...and so on and so forth.

If you use prepositions that require the genetive case before numbers, then the noun after the number will be in the gen plu.

Минута = minute
Две минуты - 2 minutes
Три минуты - 3 minutes
Четыре минуты - 4 minutes
Пять минут - 5 minutes
Шесть минут... - 6 minutes...

Без двух минут - without 2 minutes
Без трёх минут - without 3 minutes
Без четырёх минут
Без пяти минут
Без шести минут

Does this also appply to other prepositions before numbers that take non-genitive cases?

Moryachka wrote:

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This is because what you're saying is really: Я хочу немного воды. The немного is implied.

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that's interesting, thanks. so you'll say:

i khotshy vina, tshaya (or tshayu because of the old form maybe), makaronov (is it still ok with plural) but:

i khotshy sobaku (putting mnogo before wouldn't make any sense).

and:

i khotshu vetshiny (some of this ham) or i kotshu etu vetshinu (this piece of ham and not another one).
i khotshu etu butilku vody (once again mnogo doesn't belong).

am i right or am i going too far?

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1 = nominative singular
2-4 = genitive singular
5-20 = genitive plural
21 = nominative singular
22-24 = genitive singular
25-30 = genitive plural

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i've got that right but what about the adjectives? do they always go genitive plural (except for odin of course), feminine or masculine?

TATU wrote:

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Без двух минут - without 2 minutes

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oh, my god, that's a tricky one :|

i wrote:

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*when the sentence is in the negative form (but it's more of a blur to me):
ia ne ponial etogo glagola.
but:
ia ne ponimaya etu frasu (i'm think when the direct object is feminine, you should use the accusative).
no idea about plural

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can someone help me on these ones? :wink:

i ne ponial etix glagolov??
i ne ponial etix fras??

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Originally Posted by possopo

can someone help me on these ones? :wink:

i ne ponial etix glagolov??
i ne ponial etix fras??

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я не понял (что?) эти глаголы ( accusative)
я не понял (что?) эти фразы (accusative)

but:
ia ne znaiu etogo glagola, right?
ia ne piu vody.
i ne liubliu etogo stulia.

is it right that the genitive case often follows a negation?
maybe not with a plural, ohhhh, i'm lost.

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Originally Posted by possopo

ia ne znaiu etogo glagola, right?
ia ne piu vody.
i ne liubliu etogo stulia.

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Sorry, but all your examples are accusative and not genitive.
я не знаю этот глагол
я не пью воду
мне не нравятся эти стулья

wouldn't the third one be nominative there?

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Originally Posted by waxwing

wouldn't the third one be nominative there?

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Yes it would.

Uses if genetive and genetive form:
A) Accusative of animate nouns (masculine singular/plural and feminine plural)
B) After negative with:
- direct objects, as in нет света
- absence after implicit to be, as in Отца нет дома
C) Possesive structures, e.g., книга сестры
D) Partitive genetive and expressions of quantity and measure, as in ветка дерева, много денег, несколько окон
E) Expressions of quality, as in продукты высшего класса
F) After numerals, as in три студента
G) Dates, as in третьего марта
H) In structures with comparison of nouns, as in лучше того студента

great, thanks!:) that's a big help!

waxwing! thankyouthankyou. For Море удачи и дачу у моря. At last an island (or beach) of sanity in all this!!!
(кстати, почему здесь винительный падеж, in-joke from a movie?)

I never want to post more than a useless two-line response again!!! Unless I quote smth out of a book. That's it!

I think it makes sense it's accusative 'cos it's like "I wish you ... XXX" .. would it be right to use желаю there? And I just found it on the internet somewhere (forget where) and thought it was funny :)

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Originally Posted by Milanya

Sorry, but all your examples are accusative and not genitive.
я не знаю этот глагол
я не пью воду
...

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Can't those two be in the genitive?

This always gives me trouble. The rule I learned was that generally the direct object of a negated verb is in the genitive, but it may be in the accusative if it is a "particular, individualized" person or object. Figuring out who or what might qualify is beyond me, so I almost always use the genitive.

Are there times when the genitive canNOT be used here?

erm, you don't get more particular than этот

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Originally Posted by TATY

erm, you don't get more particular than этот

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Okay. What about these examples taken from the internet:

Я не знаю этого слова - его нет в человеческом языке.

Как можешь ты, царь, думать так обо мне? Я не знаю этого человека.

Нет, я не знаю этого слова.

(There were 813 raw matches for "Я не знаю этого" and 614 for "Я не знаю этот," but the words weren't necessarily contiguous, so they all don't match our examples.)

Aren't those just as particular? Are they wrong?

Ern