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Your teacher possibly told you that Russian has only six cases. This is not true. The full list is as follows:
Именительный
Родительный
Отделительный
Ждательный
Дательный
Счетный I
Счетный II
Винительный
Включительный (Превратительный)
Творительный
Предложный
Местный
Лишительный
Звательный старый
Звательный новый
For example was you taught this difference:
Locative Preposition
в слезАх - о слЁзах
на соплЯх - о сОплях
в слюнЯх - о слЮнях
в яслЯх - о Яслях
где цитата?
wow, are there examples for each of the cases? if some of the are old, I doubt one needs them... Звательный старый - is definitely obsolete (used in church language probably). I think this all makes sense in study of grammar, but in real life people use the main cases.
Anixx, you've made me think about Russian language a bit... as a native speaker of Russian i feel a bit uneducated :-))) here is the link with some cases mentioned above. http://ilyabirman.ru/meanwhile/2006/10/01/2/
another one
olga_arefieva: количественно-отделительный, лишительный, ждательный, местный, звательный, превратительный и счётный
it's fascinating but not very useful for learning Russian as the rules of inclination per these cases are quite vague, it's easier to just memorize their most notable instances
I think the more cases to study the better. Based on my experience with foreign languages, the rules/grammar would not make a speech in a foreign language. The rules are secondary and the speech is primary. The rules would only attempt to find the consistencies in the speech pattern. As a result, a study of the rules along with the examples would mostly make sense to build the consistency patterns in the brain of the student. A student is learning a rule (i.e. a pattern) and then attempts to apply that pattern to create more examples of his own. Therefore, the formal language education is useful to make the student learn to create the speech the right way right from the beginning. The exceptions, on the other hand, are counter-productive in that sense. The students are asked to memorize them, but they do not help with the consistency. As a result, I think if there is a rule which would cover even the 1% of the cases, it would be much more beneficial to learn that pattern rather than memorize that as an exception. I think the way the modern Russian grammar is created is a mess. There are so many exceptions that it makes students wonder why do we actually need the rules? If I get it right, the 'exceptions' are just the rules (=the speech patterns) that the grammar book authors wanted to exclude from the study. With respect to what I said earlier, that kind of 'simplification' does not really make much sense to me. As a student, I would rather study the 15 cases and make my speech more consistent than recite those 'mnemonic poems' which help to memorize the exceptions. So, first, you have to identify the rule which applies, and then check in the 'mnemonic poems' maybe there is an exception! How, the heck that would help with creating consistent speech?! What do you think?
There are quite enough modern cases, thanks.... :pardon:!
Let's map them to the English or Latin equivalent.
I only recognise about 5 of these, but I have not memorised all of them in Russian, so some of them might be familiar in English.
When I took Latin in high school, we learned that there are 7 cases -- of which two (vocative and locative) are used only with certain nouns (in classical Latin, there are only four or five nouns that have a locative case at all, if I remember correctly).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
But for the five main cases, some of them had multiple functions, and we had to memorize the formal names for these functions. For example, we didn't simply learn that there is an "ablative case"; we were taught about:
Ablative of Place Where
Ablative of Place From Which
Ablative of Instrument or Agency
Ablative of Accompaniment
Ablative Absolute
...etc.
To me, this makes more sense than treating each of these ablative functions as a different падеж -- since, after all, the ablative singular of gladius (sword) is always gladiō regardless of whether you want to say that "there is blood ON the sword" (Place Where) or that "someone was killed BY the sword" (Instrument) or that "he traveled WITH his sword" (Accompaniment).
So, in the case of Russian, you could teach the Отделительный and Ждательный functions as "Genitive of Partition" and "Genitive of Antici...
...
...
...pation" (or something like that), rather than as entirely different cases from the Родительный.
PS. Regarding the звательный падеж, are there any examples at all other than Господи and Боже?
Мам, Пап.Quote:
Originally Posted by Throbert McGee
New vocative: ребят, девчат, мам, пап, баб, кис, дорогуль, детуль, роднуль, Вась, Петь, Кать, Вов...Quote:
Originally Posted by Throbert McGee
Old vocative: господи, боже, княже, отче, друже, старче, владыко, Исусе Христе, ...
Example for plural: панове, that is used to address Poles (or those who can be addressed "пан" in singular) or translate Polish speech.
and UkrainianQuote:
Originally Posted by Anixx
I never seen such usage.Quote:
Originally Posted by LXNDR
Вась! Юль! Маш! Оль! Алёш! drop the final vowel to get your "vocative case". =:^)
In retrospect it seems to me that the big advantage of taking Latin in school is acquiring superior knowledge of grammar!Quote:
Originally Posted by Throbert McGee
I mean what other purpose is there? Ocassionally understanding the meaning of an unusual word, or being able to understand inscriptions on church walls just doesn't seem like a motivation for language studies. I find it almost impossible to learn the type of grammar skills you need for studying Russian as an adult. I wish I had learnt it in childhood like you, and Bitpicker did.
I on the other hand did close to a year of Russian in school, but the teacher took a quite relaxed view of the grammar and started with acquiring vocabulary and some other things instead. I actually dropped out and managed to switch to the "easiest" 3rd foreign language option, Spanish, instead. No 16 cases or Cyrillic letters there!
панове ты не слышал?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anixx
По отношению к украинцам - нет.Quote:
Originally Posted by LXNDR
по-украински иначе и не скажешь, разве что шановне панство, но это слишком высокопарноQuote:
Originally Posted by Anixx
Но мы же говорим про употребление в русском языке, а не в украинском. В русском это может встретиться только в переводе с польского или при цитировании польской речи. Украинская речь, скорее всего, будет переведена по-другому.Quote:
Originally Posted by LXNDR