Confused: свой

I have been working steadily through the new penguin edition and have found no real problems up until
chapter 21: on possession. I understand свой in the context of the first and second person, but am confused
with the thrid person

It seems that you have to use свой if the thing belongs to the subject in the third person, however there are occasions where the
sentence structure means that you should use её его их etc ,instead

For example the book says: "'They do not know where their tickets are' is они не знают, где их(not свои) билеты

I don't understand why this is the case,

Any help much appreciated, thanks....

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Originally Posted by happyclogs

I understand свой in the context of the first and second person,

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If you understand that, then I would expect you to understand the third person as well because with your example it's exactly the same thing:
Я не знаю, где мой (not свой) билет.
Ты не знаешь, где твой (not свой) билет.
Oни не знают, где их (not свои) билеты.

If you want to use свой then you should phrase it like this, if the context permits:
Oни не знают, куда они дели свои билеты.
(BUT Oни не знают, куда делись их билеты.)

I can't help with the rules, sorry.
I remember there was a long discussion here about свой but I can't find it.

The rule should be like following: Свой describes belonging of the object to the subject of the sentence.

Example "они не знают, где их билеты" is a complex sentence, where билеты is a subject of the second sub-sentence. In "...куда они дели свои билеты" они is a subject and билеты is an object.

So, Russian people would consider a sentence like
они не знают, где свои билеты
as grammatically incorrect?
...где их билеты,
seems really weird to me...

Are you guys sure you would actually say it this way?

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Originally Posted by John_Douglas

So, Russian people would consider a sentence like
они не знают, где [s:16i7foqu]свои[/s:16i7foqu] их билеты
as grammatically incorrect?
...где их билеты,
seems really weird to me...

Are you guys sure you would actually say it this way?

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Да.
Я не знаю, где мой билет/мои билеты.
Он не знает, где его билет/билеты.
Она не знает, где её билет/билеты.

Мы не знаем, где наши билеты.
Они не знают, где их билеты.

A razve nelzya govorit' "oni ne znayut gde svoi bileti"? Tak deystvetilno nekto ne govorit?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John_Douglas

A razve nelzya govorit' "oni ne znayut gde svoi bileti"? Tak deystvetilno nikto ne govorit?

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http://www.translit.ru
...Так действительно никто не говорит?
Нет, так сказать нельзя.
Можно: Они потеряли свои билеты, но Их билеты потеряны.

In my dictionary the word "свой" is translated into English like "own":

She has her own problems to deal with. — У неё полно своих проблем.
to come into one's own — получить должное, добиться своего, добиться признания
to hold one's own — сохранять свои позиции, не уступать, держаться твёрдо, быть способным постоять за себя
he lives in his own house — он живёт в своём доме
in one's own words — своими словами
buy smth with one's own money — купить что-л на свои деньги
we grow our own potatoes — у нас своя картошка

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Originally Posted by Звездочёт

In my dictionary the word "свой" is translated into English like "own":

She has her own problems to deal with. — У неё полно своих проблем. ...

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Здорово! Это должно внести полную ясность! Садись, "5"! :yahoo:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Здорово! Это должно внести полную ясность! Садись, "5"! :yahoo:

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:oops:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John_Douglas

So, Russian people would consider a sentence like
они не знают, где свои билеты
as grammatically incorrect?

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Yes, it is definitely grammatically incorrect. In any approach. Sounds very wrong.

Well the book says:

он не знает, где билет потому, что его жена дала его билет своeй подругe

So my understanding of свой in the third person in this sentence is this:

the first "ero" is "ero" because his wife is now the nominative of the clause and
you don't -generally- use свой in the nominative

Could the second "ero" be свой though? it is part of the accusative structure of the clause.
Is it simply the case that "ero" used here means "his ticket", and if свой was used it would refer
to her ticket - but it would legitimate to do so?

Again with the final своeйподругe. is this choice simply to show that it is the wife's friend as opposed
to his? If it was "his friend" then "ero" would be used, but because it is the wife's and she is the subject
of the clause, своeй is used instead of eё...

Is this all correct?

Thanks for your help so far!

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Originally Posted by happyclogs

Could the second "eгo" be свой though?

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It would be about a wife of the wife then.

Quote:

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Again with the final своeй подругe. is this choice simply to show that it is the wife's friend as opposed
to his?

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Not "as opposed", but just to indicate whose friend that was. "Её подруге" would mean someone else's friend.

Quote:

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It would be about a wife of the wife then.

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Doesn't the second его refer to the possession of the ticket, not the wife?

What i am really asking is if u replaced the second его with свой, would it change the
meaning of the sentence; refering to "own (as in the wife's) ticket" instead of "his ticket".
Are u able to do this?

Quote:

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Not "as opposed", but just to indicate whose friend that was. "Её подруге" would mean someone else's friend.

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So this means if you say something like мужчина убил свою кошку it means "the man killed his cat",
but if you say мужчина убил его кошку, then it means "the man killed his(someone else's) cat".
Is this right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by happyclogs

if u replaced the second его with свой, would it change the
meaning of the sentence; refering to "own (as in the wife's) ticket" instead of "his ticket".

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Yes. The sentence
Oн не знает, где билет потому, что его жена дала свой билет своeй подругe.
is about his wife's ticket.
However, the sentence has become clumsy because when we read "Oн не знает, где билет" we expect the ticket to have something to do with him and then we read that he has nothing to do with the ticket. But this is not about the language, it's about common sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by happyclogs

if you say something like мужчина убил свою кошку it means "the man killed his cat",
but if you say мужчина убил его кошку, then it means "the man killed his(someone else's) cat".
Is this right?

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Yes.

свой refers back to the noun in the same clause.

Он потерял свой билет. He lost his ticket. (his own) One clause.
Она потеряла свой билет. One clause
Он потерял его билет. Someone else's ticket. One clause

Он узнал, что они потеряли свои билеты. Two clauses
Он узнал and
они потеряли свои билеты
Here свои is in the second clause and refers to the subject of the second clause, они. They lost their (own) tickets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by John_Douglas

seems really weird to me...

Are you guys sure you would actually say it this way?

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People talk funny in other languages. If you learn it, you can talk funny too :wink:

Ahhh, it makes sense now!

Quote:

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But this is not about the language, it's about common sense

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Accursed, non-explicit book; i hate it when it assumes i have common sense :wink:

Thanks for help all

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chaika

свой refers back to the noun in the same clause.

Он потерял свой билет. He lost his ticket. (his own) One clause.
Она потеряла свой билет. One clause
Он потерял его билет. Someone else's ticket. One clause

Он узнал, что они потеряли свои билеты. Two clauses
Он узнал and
они потеряли свои билеты
Here свои is in the second clause and refers to the subject of the second clause, они. They lost their (own) tickets.

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Right.

I think the rule could sound like:

1. Свой can be in either the reference area of a sentence, or it can refer an object property.

Object property:
"Я точу свой нож" is correct, because the Нож is the object here, and the Свой is its property.
More examples:
Я езжу на своей машине.
Ты любишь свою жену?
(Ты) Покажи свой нож!

References:
Я стою на крыльце своего дома.
Я люблю работать на себя.
Зачем ты сломал лезвие своего ножа?

2. Свой can't be in the subject properties, like:
"Свой нож потерялся" sounds bad. One has to say "Мой нож потерялся", because the Нож is the subject here.
More examples:
Моя машина сломалась.
Твоя жена заболела.
The only exception is generalizing phrases like: "Своя рубашка ближе к телу", that can be expressed over the "ones own" words.

3. Свой always refers to the same clause.
See Chaika's post.

P.S. Sorry for having risen this topic up, just don't know any certain rule, but need to be sure, so if one catches an error, you're very welcome to comment.