This is just a quick question on the dialogue that begins this chapter. There is this sentence: Можно вас пригласить в ресторан, вот там, над городом? Is the word над here pronounced with a final /d/ and not /t/, since it is linked to городом?
Z
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This is just a quick question on the dialogue that begins this chapter. There is this sentence: Можно вас пригласить в ресторан, вот там, над городом? Is the word над here pronounced with a final /d/ and not /t/, since it is linked to городом?
Z
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
The regressive voice adjustment even spreads beyond lexical borders.
For example, if a speaker says "вес бутылки" (weight of the bottle) without a pause, it becomes [вЕзбутЫлки], and "вот город" (here is the town) becomes [вОдгОрат]. But if a speaker makes even a tiny pause, this effect disappears: [вЕс бутЫлки], [вОт гОрат]. This is because Russians are just "physically unable" to pronounce two consecutive consonants with different voicing (it requires some training when learning a foreign language pronunciation).
As to the prepositions, there is usually no pause after a preposition, so the effect is always in force. So, "над полем" sounds as [натпОлим], but "над городом" as [надгОрадам].
This is very helpful. It's not only because над is linked to another word that the /t/ sound becomes /d/ but that it's linked to a word beginning with a voiced consonant. I need to pay more attention to this. Thank you.
Z
With that said, Zorro, would you mind trying to guess how you should link these two words? :crazy:Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
без сдачи
Is this a trick question?
I would guess that без ends in a /z/ sound here since the /s/ in сдачи becomes a /z/ because its followed by a voiced /d/.
Z
Well, it was supposed to be such a question but you killed the trick by being correct :DQuote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Anyway, one question is still in the air. How do you link the two "з" in the natural flow of speech? However, I don't doubt you already know the answer for that as well
I can only guess, since I haven't done any conversation yet. I would guess that the /z/ sound between без and сдачи would be doubled, for clarity. Maybe?
Z
No, it won't, if you double it it won't sound naturally but as if you have troubles with pronuncing the words, because you'll have to make a pause between words to enunciate the "з" sound twice, and as Боб Уайтман said, "the regressive voice adjustment rule" wouldn't apply in that case. So, with a pause it's pronounced as /бес здачи/.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
So what do you do to link the two words into one? Well, you would sustain the sound in situations like this. What do I mean by sustain? Well, that you'll simply pronounce the doubled sound a little bit longer than if it was just a single sound. That's how native speakers differentiate between constructions like this
сестрой vs. с сестрой
войне - в войне
and so on.
But don't make it too long, just slightly longer
Anyway, I think I'm done here. I hope this helps
I'm a little confused now. Would с сестрой be pronounced /z/ сестрой and в войне as /f/ войне so the preposition doesn't blend with the noun?
Z
No, it would be pronounced likeQuote:
Originally Posted by zorro
/s:estroi/
/v":"oine/
I think you know what this ":" symbol means in IPA? It means a long sound. In this case a long consonant
So
сестрой - /sestroi/
с сестрой - /s":"estroi/
войне - /voine/
в войне - /v":"oine/
But без сдачи would be /бес здачи/ and not /без":"дачи/? In normal conversation would this be a noticeable difference?
I appreciate your help.
Z
/бес здачи/ is only possible if you make a pause between the two words, but if you don't make one, and to be frank you almost always don't, it would be /без":"дачи/. And yes, we always hear the difference between those two, as we hear the difference between с сестрой and сестрой and so onQuote:
Originally Posted by zorro
That's clear. Thanks.
Z
There is a section on indirect speech in this chapter with some exercises. Are these sentences grammatically correct?
Мы пообещали, что будем дома без двадцати восемь. (We promised we would be home at 7:40.)
Они пообещали, что вернутся сюда через двадцать минут. (They promised they would return here in twenty minutes.)
Экскурсовод пообещал, что угостит нас мороженым. (The tour guide promised he would treat us to ice cream.)
Then there's another exercise, where I need to choose imperfective or perfective aspect. There are a few I'm not sure of.
оставаться/остаться
Наша группа (will stay) в Тбилиси до вторника.
Is it будет оставаться?
приглашать/пригласить
Маша (invited) меня на дачу, но я не мог ехать.
Is it the imperfective, приглашала, because the invitation wasn't accepted?
Thanks for any help,
Z
Yes, they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Наша группа останется (perfective - future tense) в Тбилиси до вторника. - I would use this one to just convey the fact that the group stays in Tbilisy till Tuesday.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Наша группа остаётся (imperfective - present tense) в Тбилиси до вторника - I'd use this one to do the same thing as written above but this phrase also implies that this stay till Tuesday is planned.
But those two are kind of grey area, because they can be used interchangably I suppose. Depends on a particular person I guess
Маша пригласила меня на дачу, но я не мог поехать. Пригласила is used because you just imply the fact of being invited, that doesn't matter if you accepted it or not.
Не мог поехать is used because не мог ехать sounds like you didn't have the ability (not possibility!) to ехать at that moment :D
One more thing, I think your Russian is already good enough to tell you this. I hope it won't confuse you. If it does, just ignore the following:
Маша приглашала меня на дачу, но я не мог поехать - this one is also possible but it carries a little bit different meaning. Here it sounds like Masha was inviting you to the dacha very persistenly, in other words she did it more than one time.
I imagine it like that:
Masha: Let's go to the dacha, shall we?
You: I'd love to but I can't
Masha: Maybe you can after all?
You: No, I can't
Masha: Please, let's go to the dacha...
:crazy:
I hope this helps
Thanks iCake. A couple more questions.
--Когда вы (will be picking) абрикосы и персики?
--Абрикосы мы уже (are picking), а персики (will pick) через две недели.
Is it будете собирать/собираем/соберём?
Also can you use это in the neuter in a sentence with a plural noun? For example is this grammatically correct? Это--более дорогые часы, чем те.
Then there is this exercise about comparatives, changing from a чем clause using the nominative to using the genitive without чем.
In this example do both двадцать and второй get put in the genitive?
Этот урок легче, чем двадцать второй.
Этот урок легче двадцати втрого.
I'm confused about this translation too. Is this right?
The saleswoman showed my parents a black fur cap, but they didn't like it.
Продавщица показала моим родителям чёрную меховую шапку, но она им не понравилась.
Thank you for your help,
Z
all correctQuote:
Originally Posted by zorro
correctQuote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Это более дорогие часы, чем те
correctQuote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Этот урок легче двадцать второго.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
it is correct but it's not 100% clearQuote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Because in Russian all nouns have gender, sometimes you need to specify which noun you meant
In this sentence both шапка and продавщица are nouns with feminine gender, because of that it is unclear what the parents didn't like - the cap or the saleswoman
English sentence suggests that the parents didn't like the cup, so to be specific you need to say something like this
Продавщица показала моим родителям чёрную меховую шапку, но шапка им не понравилась.
I've never noticed that :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
Weird but I gotta say you are correct, it is very hard for me to say [надпОлим]
I would say in the last case both "соберём" and "будем собирать" are possible, depending on what you focus at. More context is needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
As to me, I think "... а персики будем собирать через две недели" sounds even more natural than "соберём" if no additional context provided. Of course, if the asker is interested in the result (e.g. the asker is a sales manager who is waiting to buy peaches in order to distibute them in his supermarket network), then the expected answer would be "соберём через две недели". Otherwise, I understand the question as a question about someone's plans to do this activity (focused on the action, not on its result).
As Doomer said, yes. But please note: дорогие. The "гы" syllable just does not exist in Russian words :)Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Compare:
Это дом.
Это книга.
Это окно.
Это дома. Это книги. Это окна.
but:
Этот дом новый.
Эта книга новая.
Это окно новое.
Эти дома новые. Эти книги новые. Эти окна новые.
When "это" is used to mean "it is", it never changes.
двадцать второго.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
In cardinal numerals, all parts decline (Nom/Acc двадцать один, Gen двадцати одного, Dat двадцати одному, Inst. двадцатью одним, Prep. (о) двадцати одном).
In ordinal numerals, only the last word declines (Nom/Acc двадцать первый, Gen двадцать первого, Dat двадцать первому, Inst. двадцать первым, Prep. (о) двадцать первом).
Even with larger numbers:
236 748
Cardinal
двести тридцать шесть тысяч семьсот сорок восемь
Gen:
(без) двухсот тридцати шести тысяч семисот сорока восьми (рублей)
Ordinal
двести тридцать шесть тысяч семьсот сорок восьмой
Gen:
(без) двести тридцать шесть тысяч семьсот сорок восьмого (номера)
I would say, it is right and understandable.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Theoretically it can be ambiguous (as Doomer noted): "она" can stand for either "продавшица" or "шапка".
But from the context, it is pretty much clear they meant the cap, not the saleswoman :)
All your responses help a lot.
How about this? There's a sentence written like this Вадим старше меня нá год. There's no explanation for the accent on the нá. Does this mean it is stressed and not connected to год the way prepositions usually are? If so, why is this?
How about this translation?
When will you leave? The sooner the better!
Когда вы уидёте? Чем скорее, тем лучше! Is this correct?
Thanks,
Z
zorro, please look at special thread on ЭТО
http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D1%8D%D1%82%D0%BE-19593/
[нАгод] и [нагоОд] are both good. First is as many people say, but I don't think there is some strict rule.
My try:
When will you leave? The sooner the better!
Поскорее бы вы уже ушли!
На год is pronounced as a single word with the stress on the first syllable. The o is reduced to a shwa. нАгът (ъ is shwa in transcription)Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Is нa a preposition in Вадим старше меня нa год? In English I would think of it as "by one year". Why is it stressed unlike other prepositions? Are there other examples of this in Russian? Is there any underlying rule that might help me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
This is another translation I'm not sure of:
Boris Petrovich promised us that he would come no later than two o'clock.
Борис Петрович пообещал нам, что он придёт не позже двух часа. Is this right?
Another I'm not sure of:
Tell Vadim to be here at two thirty.
Скажи Вадиму, чтобы он здесь был в половине третьего.
Thank you again for the help,
Z
Actually any preposition that makes a syllable in its default form can be stressed. It was a norm long time ago but nowadays this kind of stressing mostly sounds archaic. So don't stress prepositions and you will be safe. But native speakers sometimes can pronounce preposition stressed and the following word completely unstressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
Boris Petrovich promised us that he would come no later than two o'clock.
Борис Петрович пообещал нам, что он придёт не позже двух часов.
Борис Петрович пообещал, что придёт не позже двух.
Борис Петрович пообещал прийти не позже двух.
Борис Петрович обещал быть до двух.
Tell Vadim to be here at two thirty.
Скажи Вадиму, чтобы он здесь был в половине третьего. -ОК. Or "к половине третьего"
[нАпол], например.
Упала шляпа, упала на пол.
Уронили Мишку на пол, оторвали Мишке лапу.
You can still say [напОл] we confuse stresses then and now.
I agree with what It-Ogo wrote about the stressed prepositions. I just want to add something more on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro
1) This question has been asked several times on this forum. Try searching some older threads on stressed prepositions. Unfortunately, I do not remember what were the thread titles. If I find any, I'll provide you with links.
2) You can also try googling if you are interested in this phenomenon. For example,
https://www.google.ru/?gws_rd=cr#new...w=1280&bih=570
Particularly, you may read this discussion Stress shifting from noun onto prepostion - WordReference Forums.
3) Unfortunately, there is absolutely no rule for this. You cannot predict this shift from the word itslef. However, in modern language it mainly happens is some fixed expressions or fixed combinations. And you will be still understandable if you do not follow those combinations.
4) Some examples which come to my mind right now:
(взять/схватить) зА руку, (взять/схватить) зА ногу, с ног нА голову, смотреть пОд ноги, поехать зА город (meaning "to go to the countryside") although many would pronounce "за гОрод", бЕз толку, задание нА дом (home assignment)... There are many others.
дОсыта is a solid word
My bad. Deleted.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmixiv