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Hey,
Цhat word is most commonly used of the following:
бизнесменка, коммерсантка, женщина-бизнесмен, деловая женшина
Aslo, is it offensive for women if you refer to them using the masculine form? And why is it that I often hear women referred to using the masculine form even though a feminine form exists - eg they called a girl an артист instead of an артистка.
большое спасибо
I think the most common is деловая женшина
Well since you often hear women referred to using the masculine form even though a feminine form exists is it not at all offensive for women if you refer to them using the masculine form :) (well some can be offended maybe(деловые женщины например)...those who read about that feministic movements and took it too seriously but that's one to a million I believe)
Well, in Deutsch they just add "-in" to form a feminine profession name. In Russian it's not that easy. For traditional profession names there usually exist both masculine and feminine variant (but not always, for an instance "врач").Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
For traditionally masculine professions, the masculine variant is considered "primary", so when there is no intent to emphasize the sex of the person, the masculine variant is often used regardless of the real sex.
Кто ваша жена по профессии? Она артист.
Кто эта девушка по профессии? Она художник.
Кто она по профессии? Она спортсмен.
But using the feminine variant in this case is also correct.
However for traditionally feminine professions, feminine variant (which is primary in this case) is virtually never used when the person is a man. Feminine variant can be used only if there is no known masculine variant.
Кто он по профессии? Он медбрат (not медсестра).
Кто этот человек по профессии? Он дояр (not доярка).
Кем работает Ходорковский? Он работает швеей-мотористкой (no masculine variant).
For many profession names (mostly new ones which come from English) there is no feminine variant at all. Бизнесмен is one instance.
Моя жена - бизнесмен.
(this word doesn't break into "business" and "man" in Russian, so "man" here is irrelevant).
Деловая женщина is more a lifestyle description than a profession.
For many professions existing feminine forms are considered utterly illiterate.
Ex.
Она - библиотекарь. (not библиотекарша)
Она работает директором (not директоршой)
etc
We called ours директриса :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Never heard that; " она артистка" sounds far more naturalQuote:
Кто ваша жена по профессии? Она артист.
Right. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by net surfer
So do you still use the masculine declensions of adjectives even if it's a girl?
Я только что увидел красивого бизнесмена?
or
Я только что увидел красивую бизнесмена?
... красивую бизнесменку ;) (I don't know if it's colloquial or not)Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
OK :) I will continue the question for basurero, since it is valid:
Красивая врач or красивый врач
when врач is a woman.
Красивая женщина-врач.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
I remember we discussed that not a long time age but I can't find the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
[quote=net surfer]I remember we discussed that not a long time age but I can't find the thread.[/quote:38uxyvg0]Quote:
Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":38uxyvg0
I'm not authority on the subject, but since you would say мой умный дядя, wouldn't it logically extend to women as well -- красивая врач?
May I ask how often you say "beautiful doctor"? Beauty isn't a characteristic of doctors, if you understand me. In other words no one cares if a doctor beautiful or not, if he/she is interested in his/her doctor skills only. Therefore, it's better to say simply "Она красивая женщина", or, if you want to emphasis that she is a doctor, "Она врач и красивая женщина". The phrases "красивый врач" and especially "Красивая врач" sound weird for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Of course you don't use it very often -- but that's not really the overarching point -- it's simply a common adjective that most people know and I suspect it was chosen for that reason. There may not be many times when you speak of "beautiful doctor babes," but what about intelligent/qualified/talented/ any number of other things?Quote:
Originally Posted by pranki
Fine, drop красивый. Let's take хороший. If the doctor is a woman, how would you say it? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by pranki
Let's switch on the same logic :) In that case хороший is a characteristic of a doctor, not woman. So it's natural to say "Она -- хороший врач".Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Aha! Now we are on the same page! You answered the question! :)
Thanks!
Она клёвая врачиха.... вот так надо говорить
You know when you put 2 words together like женщина-врач how do you know which noun to put first? Is there a rule?
I think it is obvious. You wouldn't say "She is a doctor woman", but you can say "She is a woman doctor".Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
Can you say врачница?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paxan
No. And "врачиха" is rude.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwatts59
So it is sometimes offensive or belittling to use the femenine form?
It depends how you make a femenine form :)Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
Учительница polite
Училка rude
But sometimes you there's no polite femenine form eg врач.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by pisces
On the subject
I'd say if you'd like to emphasize her profession, use a masculine form. If you'd like to stress her being a woman, use a feminine form. Therefore, красивый врач doesn't work, since красивый is related to her quality as a woman.
More a question than an answer:
In Russian: A Self Teaching Guide (my first Russian textbook) it was stated that using the feminine form for occupations was patronizing-- in other words, to use the feminine form of the term "author" when referring to a woman would be the same as saying "our little authoress" in English. I wonder how accurate this is.
I apologize for not writing out the Russian words, I'm on a computer with no Cyrillic support.
Feminine form of the term "writer" ("писатель") is "писательница", which is colloquial, you probably don't want to use it in school essay. It has nothing to do with "our little writer woman".
I'm sorry, the word in the example was actually "author" (and the patronizing English equivalent "our little authoress"). The book states that the "-sha" ending (and similar others) was popular in the ninteenth century, and is now considered insulting or derogatory.
Ending in -sha are just low and nothing more. You are not expected to say it at the formal meeting.
eh? that is not colloquial, it's fine to use anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesh
так же, как и "бизнесмен" (фонетическая аналогия с "businessman") можнo употребить "бизнесвуман" (="businesswoman"), вас поймут.
бизнесменка - не упортребляется
коммерсантка - почти нет, только по отношению к мужчине - коммерсант
женщина-бизнесмен - не употребляется
деловая женшина - употребляется
Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
Ну зачем же так категорично,Quote:
Originally Posted by bonn_rara
yandex результат поиска: страниц — 3 455
это уже предложение
т е женщина - есть бизнесмен. А как фраза - это не употребляется. режет слух.
[quote=net surfer]Ну зачем же так категорично,Quote:
Originally Posted by "bonn_rara":gg4sosre
yandex результат поиска: страниц — 3 455[/quote:gg4sosre]
Вот с 1 страницы поиска, где тут "женщина - есть бизнесмен"?Quote:
Originally Posted by bonn_rara
Киев: во дворе частного дома убита женщина-бизнесмен и ее муж
Внешний вид женщины-бизнесмена
...признается Дарлин Балин, процветающая женщина-бизнесмен
Возникает вопрос: почему женщины-бизнесмены более активны
Тем более, что меня окружает половина женщин-бизнесменов.
женщина-бизнесмен, которую я давно и хорошо знаю
В силу склонности к "многозадачности" женщина-бизнесмен легко может
Но женщина-бизнесмен, конечно, ограничена определенными рамками.
Женщина-политик, женщина-бизнесмен - новые профессии для России.
ну а вы уверены, что это граммотная статья?
смысл спорить?
я сказала с позиции russian native speakers
[quote=net surfer]Вот с 1 страницы поиска, где тут "женщина - есть бизнесмен"?Quote:
Originally Posted by "bonn_rara":1sztbbdj
Киев: во дворе частного дома убита женщина-бизнесмен и ее муж
Внешний вид женщины-бизнесмена
...признается Дарлин Балин, процветающая женщина-бизнесмен
Возникает вопрос: почему женщины-бизнесмены более активны
Тем более, что меня окружает половина женщин-бизнесменов.
женщина-бизнесмен, которую я давно и хорошо знаю
В силу склонности к "многозадачности" женщина-бизнесмен легко может
Но женщина-бизнесмен, конечно, ограничена определенными рамками.
Женщина-политик, женщина-бизнесмен - новые профессии для России.
[/quote:1sztbbdj]
Ааа, тогда понятно.Quote:
Originally Posted by bonn_rara