Ah, This Grammar is Making me Insane!

When I started Russian, I didn't expect the grammar to be so... difficult. I can understand the basics, case, declention, conjugations, yeah I get it. But what really confuses me is stuff like this:

Я иду в Европу. Я иди домой. я подъезжаю к магазину.

Stuff like that is just incomprehensible to me. Why is it "в Европу" and not "к Европе"? Doesn't it seem "logical" that is should be "I'm going TO Europe", not "I'm going IN Europe"?

And what's with "Домой"? I don't understand that at all.

With the third one, why does it all of a sudden become "к"?

See, it's not the vocabulary that I find difficult, it's how you use the words. When ever I think I'm making progress, I hit a brick wall.

Now could someone please explain this to me?

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Я иду в Европу. Я иди домой. я подъезжаю к магазину.

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Я еду в Европу (unless you are going there by foot). Я иду домой. я подъезжаю к магазину.

Generally "к" means that you approach some object, but do not enter it, because it's either physically impossible, or it's not your intention (at the moment or in general).
Я подошел к нему - I approached him

In "Я подъезжаю к магазину" it's used because the person in question approaches the store in his/her car, and that's exactly what s/he wants to tell you. We don't even know if this store is the main destination of this trip (is he going to buy something? is he meeting someone near the store? or just passing by?). The store is just a convenient reference point.
Saying "Я еду в магазин" you state your intention - you are going there to enter the store (for shopping or whatever), and that's the focus of your sentence. ;)

Я еду в Европу - the same logic is used. You are going "inside" of Europe, i.e. you are going to spend some time within its borders. It's possible to say "Я еду к Европе", but it describes your direction (you are moving towards Europe from some other point), not your point of destination.

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Doesn't it seem "logical" that is should be "I'm going TO Europe", not "I'm going IN Europe"?

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Or, trust me, from the Russian point of view it doesn't. ;)
Many Russian ESL learners struggle with ambiguous things like this, and almost everyone at one point or another tried saying something like "I'm going IN England". Because - CAN IT BE? You are going to be IN England, but it's not "in", but "to"?? Weird, right? :D

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Я еду в Европу (unless you are going there by foot). Я иду домой. я подъезжаю к магазину.

Generally "к" means that you approach some object, but do not enter it, because it's either physically impossible, or it's not your intention (at the moment or in general).
Я подошел к нему - I approached him

In "Я подъезжаю к магазину" it's used because the person in question approaches the store in his/her car, and that's exactly what s/he wants to tell you. We don't even know if this store is the main destination of this trip (is he going to buy something? is he meeting someone near the store? or just passing by?). The store is just a convenient reference point.
Saying "Я еду в магазин" you state your intention - you are going there to enter the store (for shopping or whatever), and that's the focus of your sentence. ;)

Я еду в Европу - the same logic is used. You are going "inside" of Europe, i.e. you are going to spend some time within its borders. It's possible to say "Я еду к Европе", but it describes your direction (you are moving towards Europe from some other point), not your point of destination.


Or, trust me, from the Russian point of view it doesn't. ;)
Many Russian ESL learners struggle with ambiguous things like this, and almost everyone at one point or another tried saying something like "I'm going IN England". Because - CAN IT BE? You are going to be IN England, but it's not "in", but "to"?? Weird, right? :D

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Спасибо, спасибо. I still get confused with verbs of motion, thanks for the corrections.

One thing that I can say about Russians, is that you're always more than willing to help Russian learners.

But what about "домой"? It's an adjective, right? How come this is wrong "Я иду в дом"? If I'm going IN the house, it should be like "Я еду в Европе"?

And why is Europe in accusative case?

I know that I have a lot of questions, I'm sorry.

So. When you use the accusative with motion, it is the same as "into". Where you use it with dative it = already located inside. Едем В Европу, на войну. Выйду на балкон... Etc all, literally, mean into, or onto. going into Europe, going (on)to war, stepping out onto the balcony. So, the "to" meaning is still sort of there, if that is the comparison you're looking for. However you won't always be able to translate 100% from any language to another language, so asking "Why isn't it like this?!" won't actually help you any. Its better to just accept things the way they are.

And Домой just means home, and you use it when you're going there. Я иду домой, они уехали домой, мама ждет меня домой к 10. Its the idea that you're going to your home.

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Originally Posted by Astrum

But what about "домой"? It's an adjective, right? How come this is wrong "Я иду в дом"? If I'm going IN the house, it should be like "Я еду в Европе"?

And why is Europe in accusative case?

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Домой is actually an adverb, meaning that it doesn't decline or show gender, etc. -- it's always домой. And it means "to one's own home", or "homeward", etc.

The noun дом can often be translated "house; home", but in some contexts it can mean simply "a building." So if you said Я иду в дом (with дом in the accusative) it would generally be understood to mean "I'm going into the building." But Я иду домой has the clear meaning "I'm going home; I'm going to my own house" (not into some other building, and not into someone else's home). The same basic distinction applies to the adverb дома ("at home, in one's own house") versus the prepositional/locative phrase в доме ("inside a building").

To answer your other question, Europe is in the accusative because the accusative, by nature, is associated with motion towards a place. The prepositional/locative case, в Европе, expresses static location rather than destination -- "where at", rather than "where to".

And the distinction between the accusative and prepositional cases not only exists with "true" Verbs Of Motion (like идти and ехать) but also with other verbs that express some kind of movement, even if they're not technically VOMs.

For example, "I was sitting in the chair" (location without movement) would be Я сидел на стуле (with the word for chair in the prepositional/locative form).

But "She sat the child down in the chair" (movement into a position) would be Она посадила ребёнка на стул (with the word for "chair" in the accusative). Note that the verbs for "to be in a sitting position" vs. "to sit someone else in a seat" are also different, but the main point here is that the word for "chair" will be in different cases depending on whether you're talking about "where at?" (prepositional) or "where to?" (accusative).

And, by the way, if you're getting out of a chair and standing up ("where from?") then the word would be in the genitive (стула). So, to summarize:

"where at?" = prepositional case (but after certain prepositions, instrumental)
"where to?" = accusative case (but after certain prepositions, dative or instrumental)
"where from?" = genitive case (nearly always)

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In "Я подъезжаю к магазину" it's used because the person in question approaches the store in his/her car, and that's exactly what s/he wants to tell you. We don't even know if this store is the main destination of this trip (is he going to buy something? is he meeting someone near the store? or just passing by?). The store is just a convenient reference point.

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Yep. I would probably translate this sentence as something like "I am driving towards the store" or "I'm in my car and heading in the general direction of the store", etc. (Note that the implied meaning of "moving towards; approaching" comes from both the verb prefix под- and the preposition к + dative.)

But by the way, к + dative can also be used with a person (rather than a building or a city or country, etc.) in the dative, and then it's often understood as meaning "to someone's home". Мы едем к бабушке ("We are driving to Grandma's house"). Я иду к Ивану ("I'm walking to Ivan's place"). You can also invite someone else к мне ("to my place; to my house"), but as I said above, if you're going to your own home, then it's домой without a preposition.

Мама ждёт меня домой как-то не звучит. Лучше: Я тороплюсь домой, меня мама ждёт или Я должен уходить, меня мама дома ждёт.
И выйду на балкон. (Я добавила й).

Да, домой можно идти без предлога (без повода) = You do not need excuse (reason) to go home.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Мама ждёт меня домой как-то не звучит.

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This surprises me a bit (хотя, конечно, тебе доверяю насчёт русской грамматики!), because of the line "[Жена] ждёт меня домой" from "Ой мороз мороз."

Of course, I know that one can't always use folk songs as a model for proper usage, but I don't understand exactly what's wrong with Dogboy182's sentence. Does it make a difference if one adds a time construction such as к десяти?

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

This surprises me a bit (хотя, конечно, тебе доверяю насчёт русской грамматики!), because of the line "[Жена] ждёт меня домой" from "Ой мороз мороз."

Of course, I know that one can't always use folk songs as a model for proper usage, but I don't understand exactly what's wrong with Dogboy182's sentence. Does it make a difference if one adds a time construction such as к десяти?

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Не знаю, ждёт меня домой к десяти звучит лучше. Ещё бы можно, например, жёны ждут мужей с войны домой, пришёл с войны домой, вернулся с тюрьмы домой. В общем, как-то поэтически получается.
(Когда начинаешь слишком вдумываться в некоторые словосочетания, они иногда начинают странно звучать.)

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Домой is actually an adverb, meaning that it doesn't decline or show gender, etc. -- it's always домой. And it means "to one's own home", or "homeward", etc.

The noun дом can often be translated "house; home", but in some contexts it can mean simply "a building." So if you said Я иду в дом (with дом in the accusative) it would generally be understood to mean "I'm going into the building." But Я иду домой has the clear meaning "I'm going home; I'm going to my own house" (not into some other building, and not into someone else's home). The same basic distinction applies to the adverb дома ("at home, in one's own house") versus the prepositional/locative phrase в доме ("inside a building").

To answer your other question, Europe is in the accusative because the accusative, by nature, is associated with motion towards a place. The prepositional/locative case, в Европе, expresses static location rather than destination -- "where at", rather than "where to".

And the distinction between the accusative and prepositional cases not only exists with "true" Verbs Of Motion (like идти and ехать) but also with other verbs that express some kind of movement, even if they're not technically VOMs.

For example, "I was sitting in the chair" (location without movement) would be Я сидел на стуле (with the word for chair in the prepositional/locative form).

But "She sat the child down in the chair" (movement into a position) would be Она посадила ребёнка на стул (with the word for "chair" in the accusative). Note that the verbs for "to be in a sitting position" vs. "to sit someone else in a seat" are also different, but the main point here is that the word for "chair" will be in different cases depending on whether you're talking about "where at?" (prepositional) or "where to?" (accusative).

And, by the way, if you're getting out of a chair and standing up ("where from?") then the word would be in the genitive (стула). So, to summarize:

"where at?" = prepositional case (but after certain prepositions, instrumental)
"where to?" = accusative case (but after certain prepositions, dative or instrumental)
"where from?" = genitive case (nearly always)

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Oh, thanks a lot, that really helps me! Many thanks! I'll write that down so I won't forget.

Despite the opinions on whether or not it звучит or не звучит, I was just trying to show how it can be used. I've heard it used like that, but whatever.

Also, Throbert made some very useful observations. It is true that дом doesn't always mean house. I remember trying to explain for example "Дом 4. Кв 25" to non-Russians with frustration. They'd always say something like "How can it be a house and an apartment!?!?". Hilarious.

BTW grammar situation with домой, дома in Russian is identical to the one in English. At least my vocabulary says so. :D

Word home in English can be noun or adverb.

I am at home. - noun.
I am home. - adverb.
I go to home. - noun.
I go home. - adverb.

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мама ждет меня домой

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Абсолютно нормально, хотя появление такой фразы в песне более вероятно, чем в реальной жизни.

Throbert McGee

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You can also invite someone else ко мне

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Домой is actually an adverb, meaning that it doesn't decline or show gender, etc. -- it's always домой. And it means "to one's own home", or "homeward", etc.

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Yes. This is the most exact translation.

домой=homeward

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

The noun дом can often be translated "house; home", but in some contexts it can mean simply "a building." So if you said Я иду в дом (with дом in the accusative) it would generally be understood to mean "I'm going into the building." But Я иду домой has the clear meaning "I'm going home; I'm going to my own house" (not into some other building, and not into someone else's home). The same basic distinction applies to the adverb дома ("at home, in one's own house") versus the prepositional/locative phrase в доме ("inside a building").

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There is no locative for "дом". There is a vestige of the former locative case in the frozen phrase "на дому" but it is currently considered a two-word adverb rather than locative because you cannot insert an adjective between "на" and "дому".

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

For example, "I was sitting in the chair" (location without movement) would be Я сидел на стуле (with the word for chair in the prepositional/locative form).

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Again, this is not locative. It is prepositional. The locative form would be "на стулУ". But is is not used.

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

You can also invite someone else к мне ("to my place; to my house"), but as I said above, if you're going to your own home, then it's домой without a preposition.

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"ко мне"

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

This surprises me a bit (хотя, конечно, тебе доверяю насчёт русской грамматики!), because of the line "[Жена] ждёт меня домой" from "Ой мороз мороз."

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To me it looks quite Ok.

"подъезжать" includes the meaning of "to approach".

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Again, this is not locative. It is prepositional. The locative form would be "на стулУ"

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Understood, but in some English-language textbooks about Russian grammar, the terms "locative" and "prepositional" are used interchangeably in reference to "ком/чём", even though properly they should be distinguished, as you said. That's why I wrote "locative/prepositional", because I wasn't sure which term Astrum would be most familiar with.

P.S. In English textbooks that use "locative" and "prepositional" as synonyms (or that use "locative" instead of "prepositional"), forms like в саду, when they exist, are often referred to as "2nd locative", in my experience.

P.P.S. In my first-year college Russian textbook, I'm pretty sure (though it's been many years!) that the term "prepositional" wasn't used at all -- so, e.g., both в магазине and об американцах were described as examples of the "locative case", even though the second one has nothing at all to do with location! I would guess that this odd use is the result of trying to map traditional Latin grammar terms onto Russian.

By the way, I think I made an error in my explanation to Astrum:

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"where at?" = prepositional case (but after certain prepositions, instrumental)
"where to?" = accusative case (but after certain prepositions, dative or instrumental)
"where from?" = genitive case (nearly always)

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Instrumental can definitely be used (with certain prepositions, like под, "underneath") to mean "where at?", but wouldn't be used to mean "where to?" -- at least, I can't think of any common examples that Astrum needs to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

Despite the opinions on whether or not it звучит or не звучит, I was just trying to show how it can be used. I've heard it used like that, but whatever.

Also, Throbert made some very useful observations. It is true that дом doesn't always mean house. I remember trying to explain for example "Дом 4. Кв 25" to non-Russians with frustration. They'd always say something like "How can it be a house and an apartment!?!?". Hilarious.

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That's a very interesting question. It seems I have never understood it completely.
Does it mean that "дом" (as a noun) is not equal to the English "house"?
For example, I've checked both English and Russian wikipedia. The English wikipedia House - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia provides a definition for "house" (I have underlined some key words):

"A house is a building or structure the primary function of which is to be occupied for habitation by humans or other creatures.[1][2] The term house includes many kinds of dwellings ranging from rudimentary huts of nomadic tribes to complex structures composed of many systems.[3] English-speaking people generally call any building they routinely occupy "home"."

But all the pictures in the English-language article only show some old-style (rural type) houses of 1 or 2 floors.

The Russian version of the same article (Жилище — Википедия) redirects to "жилище" (not "дом"). But I'd say "жилище" is just a more generic term than "дом". If you look at the pictures in the Russian article, you will see both old and modern houses there (e.g. Многоквартирный дом в Нидерландах, Двенадцатиэтажный жилой дом в России).

I wonder if English-speaking people never call a modern high-rise "дом" a house?
I understand it can be called "a building". But I think "a building" is something more general: it can be a factory, a museum, a hospital, a temple etc. of various architecture types.
Is it true that "a house" is reserved only for a rural low-rise "дом"? Or am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

I wonder if English-speaking people never call a modern high-rise "дом" a house?
I understand it can be called "a building". But I think "a building" is something more general: it can be a factory, a museum, a hospital, a temple etc. of various architecture types.
Is it true that "a house" is reserved only for a rural low-rise "дом"? Or am I missing something?

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I'm not native but from what I heard - a house usually implied to someone's home (one family) and in the US sometimes even more strictly applied to a separate few-story residential building that belongs to a family, a house usually stays on a piece of land that belongs to the same family . Other types of "residential spaces" will be townhouse, apartment, flat, studio and condo (from condominium).
Other types will be buildings and one building can include several apartments for example.

Для кого и пещера жилище, точно! :flazhok:


Doomer,
but if you have address, let say, "Partizanskaya 10", how could you call the object type, situated at this address? If not house, then ... building?

I bet, if the discussion encompass the term подъезд too, it will end not soon :duel:

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Originally Posted by Doomer

I'm not native but from what I heard - a house usually implied to someone's home (one family) and in the US sometimes even more strictly applied to a separate few-story residential building that belongs to a family, a house usually stays on a piece of land that belongs to the same family . Other types of "residential spaces" will be townhouse, apartment, flat, studio and condo (from condominium).
Other types will be buildings and one building can include several apartments for example.

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Thank you, Doomer!
BTW, is it a US-specific concept? What is about the UK, and the rest of the English-speaking world? (If anyone knows...)

It's interesting that it contradicts to my intuitive image of house/дом :) When I hear this word out of a context, the first thing that comes to my mind subconsciously is an image of a multistory multi-apartment modern urban building. I am an urban dweller myself, and that is the reason. But I think it's also an issue related to some cultural differences.

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Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I bet, if the discussion encompass the term подъезд too, it will end not soon

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I believe "подъезд" in English is just "porch" or "entrance". But when applying it to a street address (like ул. 1 Мая, д. 10, подъезд 2) I would translate it as "entrance": 1st May str. - 10, entrance 2.

Of course, it would be better to have some input from native English speakers, if they could comment on it.

How flat differs from apartment?

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Originally Posted by Anixx

How flat differs from apartment?

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As far as I know, "flat" is used in UK, and "apartment" in US.

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Originally Posted by Anixx

How flat differs from apartment?

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AFAIK flat is a one-story apartment. Apartment, for example, could have two stories

I like OALD dictionary, because it always differentiates between British English and American English. From my experience, Americans tend to say 'apartment' (when they mean a Russian квартира), while Brits usually say 'flat'. It's a common mistake though on the part of Russian speakers to use the word 'house' when they actually mean 'apartment building, or block of flats' (this is due to lack of specific terms in Russian and seeming universality of the word "дом" which might mean anything in Russian, almost any type of dwelling).

flat - Definition and pronunciation | Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

apartment - Definition and pronunciation | Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Is there any other thread on 'housing'? I love this topic. I was always wondering what terms would they use in English when referring to Russian "двор", "подъезд". On the other hand, how would a Russian translate 'housing project'? (as in 'I live on project, dawg...'). The difference between Russian 'коттедж' and English 'cottage' seems really fascinating.

Online, you can see pictures for 'detached house' 'semi-detached house' 'row housing'. Part of the problem with 'house' is the use as adjective. As in housing project, which are larger buildings, not houses. Equipment may have a 'housing', that is nothing at all like a house. Habitable buildings that are houses can range from single family, to multi-family, single floor, to multiple floors, detached, semi- or row houses.

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Originally Posted by alexsms

On the other hand, how would a Russian translate 'housing project'? (as in 'I live on project, dawg...'). The difference between Russian 'коттедж' and English 'cottage' seems really fascinating.

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Interesting: housing project = "a group of houses or flats/apartments built for poor families, usually with government money".
Frankly speaking, it's the first time I learn about it. If I had not read your post, I would think it is just a "project", i.e. something what is being planned, not constructed yet. 8)

BTW, I've just looked through some pictures of "housing projects" at "housing project" - Поиск в Google.

Some of them look more like what we call "микрорайон" in Russian (e.g. pictures of Singapore and Mumbai). I'd say they are beautiful and modern, I would never guess they are for "poor families".

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I believe "подъезд" in English is just "porch" or "entrance".

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Боб, я имел в виду, понятны ли англоязычным такие фразы:
- В нашем подъезде 98 квартир, а все стены разрисованы.
- Федя из третьего подъезда включил газ и лёг спать.
- Игорь Иртеньев | * * *
... и как я мог бы перевести их на английский. Просто "porch"? А ю шуа?

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Originally Posted by Doomer

AFAIK flat is a one-story apartment. Apartment, for example, could have two stories

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Can I say "flat apartment"?

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Originally Posted by Anixx

Can I say "flat apartment"?

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Unlikely

Мне кажется, что в Чикаго во всех жилых домах только одна входная дверь. Есть ещё дверь во двор, но её всегда открывают ключем. Не помню ни одного дома с подъездами (вход/выход), как в СССР.

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I'd say they are beautiful and modern, I would never guess they are for "poor families".

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They start out beautiful and modern, but sometimes what follows is the so-called "tragedy of the commons" -- the public areas of the building detoriorate, with graffiti and trash and urine in the hallways, because the residents have very little economic incentive to take care of the common areas. This is part of the rationale for alternative approaches that assist low-income people in buying homes or condominum apartments -- when people OWN property, they care more about protecting it, maintaining it, and even making improvements to it.

On the other hand, some "housing projects" are designed with the intention that both middle-class and poor families will live in them -- with the middle-class tenants paying something close to market rates, and the poor tenants receiving subsidies. The idea is, (1) that the "upper lower class" will be able to climb up the ladder into the "lower middle class," and (2) that the poor families in general will absorb some of the "solid bourgeois values" of their middle-class neighbors. Or, to put it another way, the assumption is that it's not a good idea to have too many poor people living too close together, because they'll learn bad habits from each other.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Мне кажется, что в Чикаго во всех жилых домах только одна входная дверь. Есть ещё дверь во двор, но её всегда открывают ключем. Не помню ни одного дома с подъездами (вход/выход), как в СССР.

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да нет, есть и с подъездами и чем ближе к даунтауну, тем больше таких домов

"hallway" is definitely the word I should learn. It seems, that it could be used at times instead "подъезд".

Recently, I received funny check out of ATM. They print the address of the bank along the other info.
The address is printed both in Russian and English 8)
Here it is:
г.Москва ул. Смирновская, д.10, стр.22
Moscow 10, bldg 22, Smirnovskaya St.

Now I wonder: Does English variant give you brain damage, or it looks okay?

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Or, to put it another way, the assumption is that it's not a good idea to have too many poor people living too close together, because they'll learn bad habits from each other.

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That makes sense to me.
However from what I see nobody wants to live in areas with "too many poor people". Even poor people want to get away, but they just can't.