The Accusative and Dative Cases For Я

Hello, forums.

Regarding the Russian case system, I'm now getting a better grasp on it, but one thing that trips me up is the accusative and dative cases. The reason being is because they're so similar and I find it difficult to tell the difference.

For example: in "Он видит меня," я is in the accusative case.

For this: "Она помогала мне," я is in the dative case.

But why, though? To me they both look like they should be in the accusative case, because aren't they both objects of an action? In the first one, he/she is being seen, and in the second one he/she is being helped. Is the latter in the dative case because the person is being given help, making it a recipient?

Edit: Changed the second sentence. Original was "Она нравится мне."

I'd say in the second она is the object :duel:

Oh, I edited the second sentence a bit, but I'm not sure if that affected your answer.

Oh, that's a very difficult question. It's hard to explicity answer it. I'll try though.

Okay, let's put it in contrast. Warning: what I'm going to do now is not grammatically correct but I think it might help a bit. So here we go.

Он видит меня - a perfectly fine sentence meaning "he sees me". But what it'd sound like if we put Я in dative there?

Он видит мне. This one sounds weird, but it also changes meaning a bit. Now it sounds like "He sees for me." Why? Because now the dative case gives us a notion that you are the recipient of the seeing action. Like he sees things and then, somehow, give you the things he saw. I know it's very odd, but hey the original sentence is also bizaar :)


Она помогала мне - A perfectly fine sentence, because you were given help and help is something that can be given, unlike the seeing process, for obvious reasons I hope :) (Note: don't say дать помощь in Russian. Although I did say that help can be given, but I didn't mean it literally. What matters here is that help is something that can go from one person to another, when seeing cannot.)

Она помогала меня - Now this sounds weird, also a bit funny. Now it sounds like she didn't give you help, but rather like she used you to perform the action of helping and not like "hey, do this for me and you'll help another person", but like "she imposed help on you" and not in the usual way :) Anyway, this last sentence sounds mostly like nonsense, hard to even describe it.

Hope this helps in any way.

Note: It might be a good practice to learn both a verb and its common object (if any). It can save you a lot of grief in the long run

Thanks for that, it cleared things up. I guess I have to be really careful about cases in Russian then, because I could say something really awkward if I get it wrong, lol. By the way, bizaar should be spelled as bizarre.

Quote:

---

Is the latter in the dative case because the person is being given help, making it a recipient?

---

Missionary, по-моему, вы сами прекрасно ответили на свой вопрос.

Мaxmixiv, в "она нравится" мне "она" - это подлежащее, ведь стоит в именительном падеже.

I think there is a more technical explanation to it though. I might be mistaken however, not likely though.

So, accusative is a direct object. Who/what is affected by an action.

Он видит меня - меня is affected by the seeing action so that the action performer sees you.
Я получил зарплату (I received my salary) - Salary is affected by the receiving action, therefore it's received by you.


The other non-nominative cases are indirect objects. Meaning objects that are not affected by the action in a direct way, but rather objects that reap the benefits of the action (like a recipient for example)

Он дал мне книгу (He gave me a(the) book)

книгу is a direct objects beacause it is affected by the giving action, thus it's given.
мне is an indirect object. It's not affected by the giving action directly, but reaps the benefits of it, so that you receive the book.

So an indirect object is a reaper :) Hopefully not the grim one :crazy:

Ahh, I see now. That was a much better explanation! So, I came up with this just then:

"Он читал книгу мне," = "He read the/a book to me."

Книгу is in the accusative case because it is directly affected by the first person reading it, and мне is in the dative case because the second person is reaping the benefits of what was being read, in a way, by listening. I think I'm beginning to understand this a lot better now!

In fact, помогать has not just an object in the dative case, but a frame of 2 objects: "a person" + "to do something". In most cases that frame is implemented as "dative case" + "infinitive" in Russian.

For example:
Она помогла мне приготовить обед.
Он посоветовал ей не откладывать визит к врачу.

The direct object of the main verb here is an infinitive (приготовить, не откладывать), and the indirect object is a person in the dative (мне, ей).


An infinitive can also be used as a subject, still framing with the dative:

Прийти к тебе сегодня мне невозможно. - For me to come to you today is impossible.
Мне нравится работать здесь. - I like working here. Literally: For me to work here is pleasing.
Мне было удивительно слышать это. - I was surprised to hear this. Literally: For me to hear this was surprisung.

Some verbs require the accusative, effectively having 2 direct objects:

Я попросил его подождать пару минут. (accusative + infinitive)
Я посоветовал ему подождать пару минут. (dative + infinitive)

The difference is completely up to the main verb. Попросить requires the accusative and посоветовать requires the dative. It is unlikely that there is a reasonable explanation for this, so you just have to remember required grammatical cases for each verb.

Some languages take the separation of transitive verbs and intransitive verbs very seriously. It's not a surprise but.... Russian is one of those languages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karavanshchik

Some languages take the separation of transitive verbs and intransitive verbs very seriously. It's not a surprise but.... Russian is one of those languages.

---

Well, Russian takes that separation not so seriously as many other languages, or else it would have some grammatical means to distinguish "Я повернул кран" (transitive) and "Я повернул за угол" (intransitive). :-)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RedFox

Well, Russian takes that separation not so seriously as many other languages, or else it would have some grammatical means to distinguish "Я повернул кран" (transitive) and "Я повернул за угол" (intransitive). :-)

---

Compare to Korean (my native language), I see a stronger divide between transitive verbs and intransitive verbs in Russian than Korean. Trust me, your average native Korean speaker doesn't know much about any transitive-ness in verbs.