Гоголь

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January 22nd, 2006, 12:27 AM
kalinka_vinnie

Гоголь

Hey guys :) I am reading Мёртвые души by Гоголь and came to a section which I didn't understand too much of. I looked up an online translation of the book, which helped, but I noticed that a sentence was curiously left out in the translation. And of course, those were the words giving me the hardest time. I have put that section in bold.

Выходя с фигуры, он ударял по столу крепко рукою, приговаривая, если была дама: "Пошла, старая попадья!", если же король: "Пошел, тамбовский мужик!" А председатель приговаривал: "А я его по усам! А я ее по усам!" Иногда при ударе карт по столу вырывались выражения: "А! была не была, не с чего, так с бубен!" Или же просто восклицания: "черви! червоточина! пикенция!" или: "пикендрас! пичурущух! пичура!" и даже просто: "пичук!" - названия, которыми перекрестили они масти в своем обществе. По окончании игры спорили, как водится, довольно громко. Приезжий наш гость также спорил, но как-то чрезвычайно искусно, так что все видели, что он спорил, а между тем приятно спорил. Никогда он не говорил: "вы пошли", но: "вы изволили пойти", "я имел честь покрыть вашу двойку" и тому подобное.

Whenever he played a court-card, however, he smote the table heavily with his hand, saying, if it were the queen, “Go along, old popess!” and if the king, “Away with you, you Tamboff moujik!” And the president constantly exclaimed, “I’ve got him by the moustache!” or “I’ve got her by the moustache!” Sometimes as the cards fell on the table, exclamations resounded such as, “Ah! to be, or not to be”; “There’s nothing to be done”; “So there’s a diamond!” and so on. At the end of the game the players disputed loudly, and the traveller joined in the discussions, but in a pleasant manner. He never shouted “Go on!” but politely remarked, “Will you have the kindness to play? I have had the honour to cover your ace,” and so on.

---

So,

" "черви! червоточина! пикенция!" или: "пикендрас! пичурущух! пичура!" и даже просто: "пичук!" - названия, которыми перекрестили они масти в своем обществе."

is what I really want to translate/understand (just wanted to give you some context)

Черви is hearts, I know, червоточина is worm hole? It is a word similar to "hearts", so in effect he is exclaiming dissatisfaction with the suit. But Пикенция? and the other words related to "spades" (Пик)? what do they mean?
January 22nd, 2006, 03:35 AM
pranki

I can assume only, because these words either are the author's inventions or are ancient and have gone away today.
So,
черви and червоточина mean hearts in the text
пикенция, пикендрас, пичурущух, пичура and пичук mean spades in the text

As for the meanings of these word, as far as I know, only червоточина has a meaning "worm-hole" (you've guessed rights :))
January 22nd, 2006, 03:41 AM
kalinka_vinnie

Quote:

Originally Posted by pranki

пикенция, пикендрас, пичурущух, пичура and пичук mean spades in the text

As for the meanings of these word, as far as I know, only червоточина has a meaning "worm-hole" (you've guessed rights :))

Hi Pranki!

OK, so they don't have any real meanings, that is fine. But do you think these are diminutives, do they sound funny (i.e. meant as a joke) or resemble other words that might have a meaning? :)

I figured they all mean spades, but there must be a reason why there is five (5!) different words for the same suit... :) And I know Gogol likes to write funny...

Thanks!
January 22nd, 2006, 04:09 AM
pranki

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

OK, so they don't have any real meanings, that is fine. But do you think these are diminutives, do they sound funny (i.e. meant as a joke) or resemble other words that might have a meaning? :)

Oh, good question! Definitely, they sound funny for me. As for resembling... I can say some of them resemble other words, but I can't say what words :) It's really hard for me to explain. For example, пичура looks like something related with hard drinking of vodka and so on. But don't ask me why, I won't be able to answer :)
January 22nd, 2006, 05:59 AM
translationsnmru

Hearts, harty-smarty, hardissimus....

Don't look for a meaning when there is none involved :).
January 22nd, 2006, 10:50 AM
adoc

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I figured they all mean spades, but there must be a reason why there is five (5!) different words for the same suit... :) And I know Gogol likes to write funny...

Thanks!

In the heat of game back in college we would often start messing with words, as long as the derivatives are recognizable it only adds to the fun. You can do it yourself:

пикище, на тебе пиклю, засажу-ка я тебе пикендрюлю и т.д. All spades, no other meaning.

BTW "не с чего, так с бубен!" is short for "не с чего ходить, так пойду с бубен!" (nothing to play with, so I'll play/attack/start/open with a diamond)
January 22nd, 2006, 05:38 PM
kalinka_vinnie

I figured as much. Thanks guys!

Strange that the translator didn't even try to make up some english equivalents and elegantly skipped over it. That is why I'm gonna read in Russian from now on!

Quote:

For example, пичура looks like something related with hard drinking of vodka and so on.

Really! Wow...

P.S. Anyone else read this book?
January 22nd, 2006, 06:25 PM
translationsnmru

Pretty much every Russian on this forum :).

This book used to be a part of official school curriculum, and most likely still is.
January 23rd, 2006, 01:20 AM
pranki

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Quote:

For example, пичура looks like something related with hard drinking of vodka and so on.

Really! Wow...

Maybe it's because of word бичура, which comes from бич, which means not only whip, but also man in the later stage of alcoholism.
January 23rd, 2006, 01:49 AM
kwatts59

Quote:

Originally Posted by pranki

Maybe it's because of word бичура, which comes from бич, which means not only whip, but also man in the later stage of alcoholism.

Правда? So when you call someone a бич, you are calling them an alcoholic.

Must be slang, I did a google search on бич and didn't see any whips or alcoholics.

But I did find this. Wow, look at that бич!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/kwatts59/beach.jpg
January 23rd, 2006, 02:11 AM
gRomoZeka

Actually БИЧ doesn't mean "алкоголик". It means "бродяга" and very close to degrading slang word "бомж" (from abbreviation "без определенного места жительства"). Though I agree that most of them ARE alcocholics.
BTW,
БИЧ (or БИЧАРА)
1. Бродяга, опустившийся человек.
2. ирон. Бывший Интеллигентный Человек.

Точное происхождение слова неизвестно. Возможное происхождение:
1) от устар. диал. «бичера» — голыш, голь, нищий, нищая братия, бедняк;
2) также из арго моряков: «бич» — моряк, списанный на берег;
January 23rd, 2006, 02:55 AM
MikeM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

2. ирон. Бывший Интеллигентный Человек.

I believe this started in Stalin's camps and Northern settlements for deported people.
January 23rd, 2006, 03:04 AM
translationsnmru

Quote:

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

2) также из арго моряков: «бич» — моряк, списанный на берег;

Сразу вспоминается Высоц.кий:

Под собою ног не чую, и качается земля.
Третий месяц я бичую,
Так как списан подчистую
С китобоя-корабля...

:)
February 2nd, 2006, 02:06 AM
kalinka_vinnie

Another question from мертвые души

- А, так вы покупщик! Как же жаль, право, что я продала мед купцам так дешево, а вот ты бы, отец мой, у меня, верно купил бы.

Why o why does this person (an old lady to Чичиков) use both polite and familiar terms? And in one sentence?
February 2nd, 2006, 03:11 AM
JJ

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

- А, так вы покупщик! Как же жаль, право, что я продала мед купцам так дешево, а вот ты бы, отец мой, у меня, верно купил бы.

Why o why does this person (an old lady to Чичиков) use both polite and familiar terms? And in one sentence?

Notice that next words after ты are "отец мой" - so she showed respect to Chichikov, an old lady called a man "my father". IMHO, вы turned into polite form and ты into familiar in the modern language, in archaic language ты was ok even if you talked to tzar, the old lady just mixed both.
February 2nd, 2006, 07:58 AM
Scorpio

Quote:

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Actually БИЧ doesn't mean "алкоголик". It means "бродяга" and very close to degrading slang word "бомж" (from abbreviation "без определенного места жительства"). Though I agree that most of them ARE alcocholics.
BTW,
БИЧ (or БИЧАРА)
1. Бродяга, опустившийся человек.
2. ирон. Бывший Интеллигентный Человек.

Точное происхождение слова неизвестно. Возможное происхождение:
1) от устар. диал. «бичера» — голыш, голь, нищий, нищая братия, бедняк;
2) также из арго моряков: «бич» — моряк, списанный на берег;

As far as I know, version 2 is closest to truth.
Yes, russian slang "бич" is originating from sailors, and derived from English idiom "to be on the beach" (about unemployed sailors).
Later this word became to mean vagabonds in common.

(Хотя, вообще-то, слова "бич" и "бомж" не вполне синонимы. Читал или слышал где-то, что настоящие, сибирские бичи, очень обижаются, если их равняют с бомжами и прочими бродягами. Для них бичевать -- это образ и стиль жизни, который они предпочитают всем другим.
В процитированном уже здесь отрывке из песни Выс.цкого "Про речку Вачу..." весьма точно стиль жизни настоящих бичей показан. Можно еще роман Владимова "Три минуты молчания" вспомнить.)