Thread: What do you think of что иван хотела чтобы апе сел?

Could someone check if this translation is OK, please? I want to know if this is the best way to express the English question: ‘What did Ivan want Anna to eat?’

что иван хотела чтобы апе сел?

I’m not sure if the final verb is in the correct form. I also wonder if this sentence in Russian would this be more accurately translated into English as ‘What does Ivan want Anna to have eaten?’

Alternatively, could ‘What did Ivan want Anna to eat?’ be translated as:

что иван хотела апе есть?

(As you can probably tell, verb conjugation is not my strong point. I think the last verb should be the infinitive form, but I don’t know if ‘есть’ is the correct translation for ‘to eat’.)

Which would be the better translation? Or would something totally different be better? (It wouldn't surprise me ...)

Thanks for any help you can give.

I don't know the answer but I'm answering because I find it interesting.

иван хотел, чтобы анна съела что?
I'm putting что in the accusative, since есть is transitive. Also I used the perfective съесть, although I'm not sure about that.

I wonder if it's possible to say:
что иван хотел, чтобы анна съела?
.. like we do in English? That doesn't look logical at all

How did you get "Апе" out of "Anna"? Is this another Pimsleur thing?

Anyhow, I'm not too sure of the answer myself. I think your answers look good, Waxwing, but the thing is, I'm a bit съесть-shy, that is, I've heard you can't really use it as other perfective verbs. I think съесть gives a meaning of "to eat something up" or maybe even "to eat something all in one go", though I'm not too sure about the second one. I'm suspecting поесть may be more appropriate here, but I'm not sure.

Besides that, the sentence itself is fairly weird in English. Ivan wanting Anna to eat something? Let alone asking about what it was he wanted her to eat?

EDIT: Just asked a Russian-speaking friend about it - she also thought it was a bit weird and was unsure. But she translated it thus: что хотел Иван, чтобы Анна поела?

I know for sure you have to use a food after съесть so don't try it otherwise.

Thanks.

What is the exact meaning of поесть? (I'm interested to know how it differs from съесть.)

Can you tell me what form of the verb 'поела' is? I'm guessing from your comments that it's past perfective. Is that correct?

Context? Ivan has made a dish and he wants Anna to eat it perhaps.
Context for the question? Possibly there's a pot-luck party. Anna's deciding what to eat; Ivan's looking on anxiously because he wants her to eat one specific dish (presumably the one he brought). Given this, one guest could ask another 'What does Ivan want Anna to eat?'

Specific context I know, but it's the grammatical construction (question word moved out of a subordinate clause to the beginning of the sentence) that I'm particularly interested in.

Perhaps 'Who did Ivan want Anna to invite?' would be an improvement. Or 'Who does Ivan want to introduce to whom?' for a sentence with two question words. (Is it possible to have both those question words from the subordinate clause positioned at the beginning of the sentence?) I couldn't begin to translate those sentences though. I wanted to have a stab at least, hence my weird attempts.

Pimsleur? Not a clue what that is. All my own work, whatever the quality.

You know, they all say Russian verbs of motion are bad, but I say есть - поесть - съесть is worse, since you can't use them when you think you should. I've read some of your posts and see that you're doing some linguistic study thing, hence the fairly weird sentences you're giving us, so I won't ask more about it

About поесть, I think it could mean sort of like "eat a bit" or "eat some", but I'm no native speaker. But съесть gives me more of a feeling of "eating something up completely."

Context? Ivan has made a dish and he wants Anna to eat it perhaps.
Context for the question? Possibly there's a pot-luck party. Anna's deciding what to eat; Ivan's looking on anxiously because he wants her to eat one specific dish (presumably the one he brought). Given this, one guest could ask another 'What does Ivan want Anna to eat?'

Well, in this situation, I'd say something like "Почему он смотрит на нее так? Может, он хочет, чтобы она попробовала его ужасные котлеты?"

Specific context I know, but it's the grammatical construction (question word moved out of a subordinate clause to the beginning of the sentence) that I'm particularly interested in.

I'm no linguist, but I think this sort of construction lends itself to awkward sentences in both languages.

Perhaps 'Who did Ivan want Anna to invite?' would be an improvement. Or 'Who does Ivan want to introduce to whom?' for a sentence with two question words. (Is it possible to have both those question words from the subordinate clause positioned at the beginning of the sentence?)

Tough ones! I have no idea how to translate it exactly in that way. Well, I do have ideas, but they're probably incorrect or unnatural-sounding. There are, however, other ways to say it that would save us from using that kind of construction, but of course that isn't what you're looking for.

Originally Posted by Pravit

I've read some of your posts and see that you're doing some linguistic study thing, hence the fairly weird sentences you're giving us, so I won't ask more about it

If only everyone who I ask weird questions to were so understanding!

Originally Posted by Pravit

About поесть, I think it could mean sort of like "eat a bit" or "eat some", but I'm no native speaker. But съесть gives me more of a feeling of "eating something up completely."

So maybe more like 'taste' or 'try' rather than eat as in consume?

Originally Posted by Pravit

I'm no linguist, but I think this sort of construction lends itself to awkward sentences in both languages.

I'm feel I'm finally beginning to appreciate how hard I've made life for myself ...

The alternate sentence I gave used попробовать, which means "to try" in that sense. About поесть I don't know if it could be used to mean "to taste" or "to try", I think it just means to eat a bit. Again, I'm a bit unsure on the usage of these verbs.

Yo Chaika, what do you think? You seem to have been around here recently.

Originally Posted by Pravit

The alternate sentence I gave used попробовать, which means "to try" in that sense. About поесть I don't know if it could be used to mean "to taste" or "to try", I think it just means to eat a bit. Again, I'm a bit unsure on the usage of these verbs.

поесть means just a process of eating -
- Что собираешься делать?
- Пойду поем.

- Я голоден - мне нужно поесть.

- Я приготовил ужин. Иди поешь.

Съесть means to eat something up completely -

- Почему ты не съел второе?
- Положили слишком много, поэтому я не смог его доесть.

Originally Posted by loumy

Can you tell me what form of the verb 'поела' is? I'm guessing from your comments that it's past perfective. Is that correct?

Basically yes. It's the feminine past perfective (but as we have seen, there are at least two perfective versions of the imperfective verb 'есть'), first person. If you haven't studied this (i.e. the basic past form of verbs -л, -ла, -ли), then I can't understand exactly how and why the translation will be useful to you in linguistic studies? Or maybe you just got confused about something.

A curious (but perhaps entirely logical) feature of Russian grammar here: this sentence is an example of the structure referred to by NJ Brown as "someone wants someone to do something". The two clauses are linked by чтобы, and the second clause always uses the past tense.
Thus if we shifted the time of the dinner party, "What does Ivan want Anna to eat" becomes, presumably, "что хочет иван, чтобы анна поела?" - i.e. the verb in the second clause is unchanged.

наши русские друзья - можно проверить (или объяснить?) порядок слов?

Pravit, do your really think the first situation sounds unnatural in English? Perhaps it would sound more natural if one of the proper names was replaced with a personal pronoun - but in any case I can imagine myself saying it, or something like it.

Originally Posted by waxwing

If you haven't studied this (i.e. the basic past form of verbs -л, -ла, -ли), then I can't understand exactly how and why the translation will be useful to you in linguistic studies? Or maybe you just got confused about something.

For each sentence I give in Russian for my project, I have to give a full English translation, but I also have to provide a complete gloss for each word, eg. 'поела' eat+PASTPERF+FEM 'чтобы' that+SUBJUNCTIVE so that other non-speakers of Russian can see what each word 'does' in grammatical terms, if you like. Of course it's also useful for me - I knew that Russian morphology was complex, but finding out things like this gives me more of a 'feel' for the language and helps me to understand more about how it is different to other languages. Does that make sense?

I have to say, this is a REALLY friendly forum (and I've been around a few in the past ). I've only been here a couple of days and despite my weird questions (I am the first to admit that they are often strange), lots of people have offered their help and advice. It has really encouraged me to learn more about Russian beyond my project. Thanks to you all again.

Originally Posted by waxwing

I don't know the answer but I'm answering because I find it interesting.

иван хотел, чтобы анна съела что?
I'm putting что in the accusative, since есть is transitive. Also I used the perfective съесть, although I'm not sure about that.

I wonder if it's possible to say:
что иван хотел, чтобы анна съела?
.. like we do in English? That doesn't look logical at all

Both of you variants are quite correct, waxwing.

Originally Posted by Pravit

Anyhow, I'm not too sure of the answer myself. I think your answers look good, Waxwing, but the thing is, I'm a bit съесть-shy, that is, I've heard you can't really use it as other perfective verbs. I think съесть gives a meaning of "to eat something up" or maybe even "to eat something all in one go", though I'm not too sure about the second one. I'm suspecting поесть may be more appropriate here, but I'm not sure.

I would use съесть rather than поесть here (if the context is undefined), I don't know why, probably because if you take some dish to eat it's generally supposed that you eat it completely (especially if you choose the quantity yourself).


'Who did Ivan want Anna to invite?' – Кого Иван хочет, чтобы Анна пригласила? Иван хочет, чтобы анна пригласила кого? (As you can notice, the structure is like in waxwing's translation about the eating thing)

'Who does Ivan want to introduce to whom?' - Кого Иван хочет представить кому? Кому Иван хочет представить кого? Кого кому Иван хочет представить? Кому кого Иван хочет представить?

I was waiting until someone Russian has responsed... because I was afraid my variants of translations of these sentences look odd. I see they are exactly as the Friendy's ones. And they still look weird to me. I believe nobody speaks that way.

Кому кого (or Кого кому) Иван хочет представить? - In my opinion is only 'normal' phrase. The rest could be correct but... uncustomary.

Originally Posted by loumy

It has really encouraged me to learn more about Russian beyond my project. Thanks to you all again.

If you want to complete your project succesfully, I think you will have to learn more Russian than you were prepared to.

I would use съесть rather than поесть here (if the context is undefined), I don't know why, probably because if you take some dish to eat it's generally supposed that you eat it completely (especially if you choose the quantity yourself).

Hmmm. So if Ivan brought a nice casserole, and we said Anna съела the casserole(or should have), it means she got a bit of it and ate it all up, or she ate the entire casserole? Can't we use поела?

Originally Posted by Pravit

Hmmm. So if Ivan brought a nice casserole, and we said Anna съела the casserole(or should have), it means she got a bit of it and ate it all up, or she ate the entire casserole? Can't we use поела?

Let's assume that the casserole contained cereal. If we say "Она съела кастрюлю каши" it means that she ate the entire casserole and you can't say "Она поела кастрюлю каши". If you want to say that she ate some of the content you may say: "Анна поела немного каши." or "Анна взяла из кастрюли немного каши и съела её."