Why is Putin not with all the world leaders at the funeral?

Printable View

April 8th, 2005, 07:29 PM
Mordan

Why is Putin not with all the world leaders at the funeral?

Good Evening,

I can understand why China has not send a representative. But I got shocked when they said on TV that Putin did not go.

What's up with that? Even Iranians and Syrians where there!

Aren't Russians christians?

Is it because the Pope was Polish? Was it because he contributed to the breakdown of the USSR?

Or is it because the (all powerful ?) Orthodox Church told Putin not to go?

Unless proven wrong, the fact he was not there made me feel like Putin has now a problem with the world and feels awkward towards world leaders. Unless it was a political move, but I don't understand it yet.

Politically and diplomatically speaking, Pope's death was quite useful and I loved the picture of all those heads of states... indeed it was a cool moment.

Cheers

Mordan
April 8th, 2005, 07:45 PM
DDT

Maybe Putin simply refuses to become part of the "circus". My estimation of him goes up.
April 8th, 2005, 10:41 PM
Geoduck

Well, DDT, the whole world is a circus, so don't fall into the trap of thinking a world leader can avoid being a part of it. Like everyone else, he weighed the cost and benefit it would have for his public image. He must have felt it was best to send an image that he did not want to be involved. He is, after all, an Orthodox christian (so he claims), to whom the pope is of no importance. China likely sent someone because they have a large Catholic population (I don't know how it compares to the numer of Catholics in Russia, though).
April 8th, 2005, 10:42 PM
Mordan

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDT

Maybe Putin simply refuses to become part of the "circus". My estimation of him goes up.

The Circus, as you call it, is simply life in our world. That's the way things are.
Now why would 200 world leaders go play in a "circus"? :)

I find this event quite comical. But still I hold that not being able to play in this circus is a sign of some insecurity.

I mean common, sometimes you got to enjoy yourself and have fun. Who does not like clowns and a good laugh?
April 8th, 2005, 10:44 PM
Mordan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoduck

Well, DDT, the whole world is a circus, so don't fall into the trap of thinking a world leader can avoid being a part of it.

I guess we are on the same wavelength on this.
April 8th, 2005, 11:04 PM
kalinka_vinnie

Dudes, it is nothing to do with Putin!

It is all about Aleksy the Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Chruch. I read this interesting article on the new york times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/07/in...pagewanted=all

Russia is one of the few countries, where the pope has never been!

niblets from that article:

John Paul's death is, officially, being mourned in Russia as the passing of a man Mr. Putin called "an outstanding public figure whose name signifies the whole era." But beneath the public expressions of condolences runs an undercurrent of animosity and suspicion that divided the leaders of the world's two largest Christian churches: Roman Catholic and Russian Orthodox.
...
relations only worsened after the collapse of the Soviet Union. As the Orthodox Church rebuilt its stolen churches and sought to re-establish its spiritual authority, the Vatican and its charismatic leader came to be seen as a threat, one aimed at undermining the Orthodox faith.
...
But in Russia, where the Orthodox Church's political influence has grown significantly, the patriarch's opposition effectively squelched any hope of a visit, despite invitations from the last Soviet leader, Mikhail S. Gorbachev, who met him while still head of the Communist Party in 1990, and from Mr. Putin, who met him twice. Mr. Putin, after his last meeting in the Vatican in 2003, acknowledged that while he wanted to be the host of the first visit to Russia ever by a Roman Catholic pope, he had deferred to the patriarch.
...
The low point in relations came in 2002, when the Vatican elevated the
status of its four apostolic administrative divisions in Russia into traditional dioceses headed by bishops. The Russian government, at the urging of the Orthodox Church, expelled a number of Catholic priests and denied visas to others.
...
The Orthodox Church is sending a delegation to the funeral on Friday, led by Metropolitan Kirill, the head of external relations, but Aleksy declined to attend. Father Vsevold said it was not normal practice for the patriarch to attend funerals of religious or political leaders abroad.

Mr. Putin also opted not to attend. Russia will be represented by his prime minister, Mikhail Y. Fradkov.
April 9th, 2005, 01:05 AM
BladeStuckin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordan

I mean common, sometimes you got to enjoy yourself and have fun. Who does not like clowns and a good laugh?

I have Coulrophobia. I do not like clowns. :twisted:
April 9th, 2005, 10:24 AM
tradakad

I think that Putin wants to show him difference from all the world, i mean he wants to say - "Russia is a great and a big country , and Russia is the greates country" , so he wants to show that he has the OTHER politics. IMHO
April 9th, 2005, 03:24 PM
JB

Putin needs to keep a good relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church more than he needs the 2 second photo op of him standing at the funeral.
The Russian Orthodox Church is waging a battle against all foreign and non-Orthodox religions that have come to "save" the post soviet Russians, the majority which consider themselves Russian Orthodox. Putin has declared himself a true believer (an interesting switch from his KGB days) and shows up weekly at all sorts of Orthodox occassions and ceremonies. An appearance at a Roman Catholic event would be a slap in the face to the Russian Church and cause Putin all sorts of political havoc back home.
April 9th, 2005, 04:55 PM
DDT

The irony is that Russian Orthodoxy and Catholicism are virtualy one and the same. There was some doctrine dispute but the split between the two churches was more of a power struggle that continues to this day. If I had to choose between the two I would choose Orthodoxy simply to prevent Rome from controlling Russian politics.
April 9th, 2005, 05:02 PM
JB

Eastern Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholics are NOT the same. Although they have many of the same saints from preschism times, and a few of the same prayers, the Roman church has moved far away from the teaching and beliefs of the Orthodox. Even John Paul didn't seem to fathom the depth of the canyon between the 2 faiths, which is why both the Greek Orthodox bishop of Jerusalem and the Russian Orthodox bishop of Moscow were so cold to JP2.
April 9th, 2005, 05:21 PM
DDT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB

Eastern Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholics are NOT the same.

I said VIRTUALY one and the same. This is especially obvious when Orthodoxy and Catholosism are compared to the many protestant churches.
April 9th, 2005, 05:34 PM
TATY

The Queen didn't go because she is head of the Church of England, and they have a bad history with the catholics.
April 9th, 2005, 05:41 PM
DDT

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATY

The Queen didn't go

Thay's my girl!

This funeral is the biggest pope funeral ever. If you ask me the whole thing is scary. The last funeral for a pope, in the late 1970's, only attracted ONE world leader. The president of a small African nation.
April 9th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Propp

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDT

The irony is that Russian Orthodoxy and Catholicism are virtualy one and the same. There was some doctrine dispute but the split between the two churches was more of a power struggle that continues to this day. If I had to choose between the two I would choose Orthodoxy simply to prevent Rome from controlling Russian politics.

That's why, as I've already said, the Pope (being only an archbishop of Rome) cannot visit another archbishopric district without permit of the head of this district, or, at least, without formal request. JPII didn't trouble himself to issue such a request. Futhermore, how Catholic church can establish dioceses when there are dioceses already in Russia.
If it does, then Catholic administration must officially proclaim either
1) it is not a true Christian church, but a heretic or self-proclaimed organisation like most Protestant churches are
OR
2) Orthodox church is not a true Christian church, but a heretic or self-proclaimed organisation like most Protestant churches are.

As far as I know, there's still some kind of formal agreement between these 2 churches. So what Catholics do, goes against this agreement.

P.S. I personally don't care. Just a friend of mine said this. I dunno if it is true or not.
April 9th, 2005, 11:29 PM
JB

The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have not been one church since the schism in 1058. So how are they be "virtually the same" now? The Roman Catholic dogmas and practices have evolved it into a seperate and alien entity from the Orthodox.
April 10th, 2005, 12:59 AM
DDT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB

The Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches have not been one church since the schism in 1058. So how are they be "virtually the same" now?

Because compared to the rest of christianity's beliefs they are together at one end of the spectrum. Don't you realise how many churches don't even think that Catholisism falls under the umbrella of christianity?
April 10th, 2005, 01:16 AM
JB

They are sadly mistaken.
April 11th, 2005, 09:08 AM
Scorpio

Re: Why is Putin not with all the world leaders at the funer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordan

Good Evening,

I can understand why China has not send a representative. But I got shocked when they said on TV that Putin did not go.

First of all, Putin *did* sent his representative (Fradkov).
(I'm not sure he's right, however -- it could be wiser just to ignore this event, as China did.)

Quote:

What's up with that? Even Iranians and Syrians where there!

"Even?" Why are you think about Iranians and Syrians so bad?

Quote:

Aren't Russians christians?

No. Mostly atheists.
And the remaining ones are *orthodoxal*, not catholic christains.
So, for them, the death of Pope means just the same, as, for example,
death of Moscow Patriarch for Italians.

Quote:

Is it because the Pope was Polish? Was it because he contributed to the breakdown of the USSR?

As for me, it's just another two reason for not liking him much...

Quote:

Unless proven wrong, the fact he was not there made me feel like Putin has now a problem with the world and feels awkward towards world leaders. Unless it was a political move, but I don't understand it yet.

It was a political move (and a wise political move, IMHO).

Quote:

Politically and diplomatically speaking, Pope's death was quite useful

You meant "cynically speaking"?
April 11th, 2005, 04:16 PM
kamka

Quote:

As for me, it's just another two reason for not liking him much...

And what exactly is so wrong about being polish? jw.
April 11th, 2005, 05:09 PM
Propp

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamka

Quote:

As for me, it's just another two reason for not liking him much...

And what exactly is so wrong about being polish? jw.

Well... hmmm... I think Polish people are not bad in their mass, and even good people, but their state leaders were, how to say, somewhat ineffective from one point of view, and arogant and opinionated from another point of view. After mongol invasion they quickly took weakened western Russian lands and pretended to ba a greatest state in Europe. Being on the outskirts of Catholic world, they decided to be more saint than the Pope itself and considered themselves the most arduous defenders of Catholic faith (and many of them still beleive in this). It is very typical behavior for those who are uncertain in their own position, a psychology of "a henchman".
In spite of their overexagerrated ambitions they lost their territory many times in 18-19 centuries.
The situation with serfs (dependant peasants) was even worse than in Russia. Even Russian administration and landlords wondered.
In the middle of 19 c. Polish rebels did everything to antagonize Russsian public opinion and even to get aversion of supportive Russian 'democrats'.
After the Czar's government gave land to Polish peasants, the rebels lost the support of their peasants also.
After the Oct. Revolution Poland again quickly appropriated western Russian, Belorussian and Ukranian lands. On the sly. They supported Ukranian nationalists, but just because they were anti-russian. Otherwise they didn't recognise Belorussians and western Ukranians and wanted to "Polonize" them.
In September 1939 Polish government quickly fled at the first signs of the war and left their army and people behind.
And now they are again one of the most staunch supporters (i.e. henchmen) of NATO and USA administration.
By "them" I mean Polish government and Polish ruling class throughout a history. I have nothing against Polish people (because they are on another side of a political pole).
April 11th, 2005, 09:23 PM
JB

interesting article in today's Los Angeles Times...
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... ines-world
April 12th, 2005, 07:02 AM
Scorpio

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamka

Quote:

As for me, it's just another two reason for not liking him much...

And what exactly is so wrong about being polish? jw.

Never heard about "Смутное Время" ('Time of Discord', 1598-1613)?
April 12th, 2005, 02:47 PM
kamka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Never heard about "Смутное Время" ('Time of Discord', 1598-1613)?

the Dimitriey chaos, ok, fine... and? Are the events from XVIth century the reason for you not liking the Poles from the XXIth century? wow. talk about prolonged resentments. :?
April 12th, 2005, 03:12 PM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB

interesting article in today's Los Angeles Times...
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... ines-world

Rightly so, they should have restricted the amount of coverage here in the UK too. We are not a catholic country, and most people are atheist. The TV schedules were all messed up because everyone was showing the same thing at the same time.
April 12th, 2005, 04:07 PM
DDT

Not only that but the pope old boy did not even have the decency to die at an appropriate time. He made quite a mess out of Prince Charles' wedding now didn't he?
April 12th, 2005, 07:49 PM
Geoduck

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDT

Not only that but the pope old boy did not even have the decency to die at an appropriate time. He made quite a mess out of Prince Charles' wedding now didn't he?

Well, you know the history between Royal English marriage and the Pope. Maybe this was the Pope's last laugh.
April 13th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Балагур

Mordan, let me ask you in my turn, why he should have been there?
April 13th, 2005, 03:11 PM
Pravit

Mordan's one of those Russia-haters that are learning Russian for God knows what reason. Sort of like 85% of Chinese-Forums.com, which is why I never go there anymore(they're even worse because they're expats).
April 13th, 2005, 03:31 PM
Pokey

Here is the list fo the dignitaries who attended the funeral. Please note that Prince Charles did attend as well as the Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Fradko and Metropolitan Kirill, foreign minister for the Russian Orthodox Church.

Afghanistan: President Hamid Karzai
Albania: President Alfred Moisiu, Prime Minister Fatos Nano. (AP)
Argentina: Vice President Daniel Scioli, Foreign Minister Rafael Bielsa.(AP,REUTERS)
Australia: Governor General, Major General Michael Jeffrey and his wife Marlena
Austria: President Heinz Fischer, Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel, (AP,REUTERS) Parliament Speaker Andreas Khol. (AP)
Bangladesh: Food and Disaster Management Minister Chowdhury Kamal Ibne Yusuf (REUTERS)
Belgium: King Albert II, Queen Paola, Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt.(AP, REUTERS)
Bosnia: Chairman of the state presidency, Borisav Paravac (REUTERS)
Bolivia: President Carlos Mesa and his wife, Elvira Salinas (REUTERS)
Brazil: President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.(REUTERS, AP)
Britain: Prince Charles, Prime Minister Tony Blair. (RETUERS,AP)
Bulgaria: President Georgi Parvanov.(RETEURS,AP)
Canada: Prime Minister Paul Martin.(RETUERS,AP)
Chile: Foreign Minister Ignacio Walker.((RETUERS,AP) President Ricardo Lagos cannot attend as his 108-year old mother
Colombia: Vice President Francisco Santos.(AP)
Costa Rica: President Abel Pacheco.(AP)
Croatia: President Stjepan Mesic, Prime Minister Ivo Sanader (REUTERS)
Cuba: National Assembly President Ricardo Alarcon (REUTERS)
Cyprus: President Tassos Papadopoulos (REUTERS)
Czech Republic: President Vaclav Klaus, Foreign Minister Cyril Svoboda.(AP, RETUERS)
Democratic Republic of Congo: President Joseph Kabila, Vice President Jean-Pierre Bemba (REUTERS)
Denmark: Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen (Reuters)
Dominican Republic: First lady Margarita Cedeno and Ambassador to the Vatican Carlos Rafael Marion-Landais.(REUTERS)
Ecuador- President Lucio Gutierrez or Foreign Minister Patricio Zuquilanda
El Salvador: First lady Ana Ligia Mixco de Saca, Foreign Minister Francisco Lainez. (AP)
Egypt: Culture Minister Farouk Hosni (AP, REUTERS)
Estonia: President Arnold Ruutel.(AP, REUTERS)
European Union: European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and his wife, Regional Policy Commissioner Danuta Hubner, Justice Commissioner Franco Frattini and External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner. Also European Parliament president Josep Borrel (REUTERS)
Finland: Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen (AP,REUTERS)
France: President Jacques Chirac and his wife, Bernadette. (AP, REUTERS)
Germany: Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, President Horst Koehler. (AP, REUTERS)
Greece: President Karolos Papoulias (REUTERS)
Guatemala: President Oscar Berger and his wife, Foreign Minister Jorge Briz and Nobel Peace Prize winner Rigoberta Menchu. (AP)
Haiti: Interim Prime Minister Gerard Latortue.(AP)
Hungary: President Ferenc Madl, Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsany.(AP, REUTERS)
India: Vice-president Bhairon Singh Shekhawat. (AP,REUTERS)
Indonesia: Social Welfare Minister Alwi Shihab, Religious Affairs Minister Maftuh Basyuni (AP, REUTERS)
Iran: President Mohammad Khatami (AP, REUTERS)
Ireland: President Mary McAleese, Prime Minister Bertie Ahern.(AP,REUTERS)
Israel: President Moshe Katsav, Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom (REUTERS)
Italy: President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi (REUTERS)
Japan: Former foreign minister Yoriko Kawaguchi (REUTERS)
Kenya: Foreign Minister Chirau Ali Mwakwere, Local Government Minister Musikari Kombo (REUTERS)
Kosovo: President Ibrahim Rugova (REUTERS)
Latvia: President Vaira Vike-Freiberga.(AP, REUTERS)
Lebanon: President Emile Lahoud, Prime Minister Omar Karami, (AP REUTERS) and parliamentary speaker Nabih Berri (REUTERS)
Liechtenstein: Prince Hans-Adam II, Princess Marie, Prince Nicholas.(AP)
Lithuania: President Valdas Adamkus.(AP, REUTERS)
Luxembourg: Grand Duke Henri and Grand Duchess Maria Teresa, Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker.(AP)
Macedonia: President Branko Crvenkovski (REUTERS)
Madagascar: President Marc Ravolomanana, Foreign Affairs
Malaysia: Bernard Dompok, minister in charge of the civil service, Abdullah Mohamad Zin, minister in charge of religious affairs (REUTERS)
Mozambique: President Armando Guebuza (REUTERS)
Netherlands: Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende (REUTERS)
New Zealand: Governor-General Silvia Cartwright (REUTERS)
Norway: Queen Sonja, Prime Minister Kjell Magne Bondevik (King Harald is in hospital recovering from heart surgery) (REUTERS)
Nicaragua: President Enrique Bolanos, Foreign Minister Norman Caldera, Ambassador to the Vatican Armando Luna.(REUTERS)
Pakistan: Religious Affairs Minister Mohammad Ejaz ul Haq (REUTERS)
Palestinians: Prime Minister Ahmed Qurie (REUTERS)
Panama: First lady Vivian Fernandez de Torrijos. (AP)
Paraguay: Vice President Luis Castiglioni and Minister of Education and Culture Blanca Ovelar
Philippines: President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo (REUTERS)
Poland: President Aleksander Kwasniewski and his wife, Prime Minister Marek Belka, former President Lech Walesa.(AP, REUTERS) and Tadeausz Mazowiecki.(REUTERS) The Polish delegation plane is flying from Warsaw at 3 AM on Friday to arrive in Rome for the funeral. (GMT+1)
Portugal: European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso, President Jorge Sampaio.(AP,REUTERS)
Romania: Romanian President Traian Basescu, Prime Minister Calin, Popescu Tariceanu.(AP,REUTERS)
Russia: Prime Minister Mikhail Fradkov; Metropolitan Kirill, foreign minister for the Russian Orthodox Church.(AP, REUTERS)
Serbia: President Boris Tadic (REUTERS)
Serbia and Montenegro: Kosovo President Ibrahim Rugova(AP) and President Svetozar Marovic (REUTERS)
Seychelles: President James Michel (AP)
Singapore: Deputy Prime Minister Professor S. Jayakumar (REUTERS)
Slovakia: President Ivan Gasparovic, Parliament Chairman Pavol Hrusovsky.(REUTERS)
Slovenia: President Janez Drnovsek, Prime Minister Janez Jansa, Foreign Minister Dimitrij Rupel. Rupel will represent the head of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe.(REUTERS)
South Africa: Deputy President Jacob Zuma ( REUTERS)
Spain: Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia.(AP, REUTERS)
Sri Lanka: Prime Minister Mahinda Rajapakse (REUTERS)
Sweden: King Carl XVI Gustav and Queen Silvia (AP,REUTERS)
Switzerland: President Samuel Schmid.(AP)
Syria: President Bashar Assad. (AP, REUTERS)
Ukraine: President Viktor Yushchenko (REUTERS)
United Nations: Secretary-General Kofi Annan. (AP)
United States:

Officials US Delegation: President George W. Bush and his wife, Laura. Former U.S. presidents Bill Clinton and George Bush, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (DC Desk)

Senators Frist, Biden, Bunning, Collins, DeWine, Dodd, Domenici, Durbin, Kennedy, Kerry, Leahy, Martinez, Mikulski, and Santorum (Office of Bill Frist)

Delegation from the House of Representatives:
Hon. J. Dennis Hastert (R-IL), Speaker of the House, Hon. Tom DeLay (R-TX), House Majority Leader, Hon. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), Democratic Leader, Hon. Steny H. Hoyer (D-MD), Democratic Whip, Hon. Rosa DeLauro (D-CT), Hon. David R. Obey (D-WI), Hon. Charles B. Rangel (D-NY), Hon. Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ), Hon. Marcy Kaptur (D-OH), Hon. Jerry F. Costello (D-IL), Hon. Christopher Cox (R-CA), Hon. Michael R. McNulty (D-NY), Hon. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL), Hon. John A. Boehner (R-OH), Hon. Anna G. Eshoo (D-CA), Hon. Bob Goodlatte (R-VA), Hon. Tim Holden (D-PA), Hon. Peter T. King (R-NY), Hon. Bart Stupak (D-MI), Hon. Steve Chabot (R-OH), Hon. Phil English (R-PA), Hon. Mark Foley (R-FL), Hon. Gil Gutknecht (R-MN), Hon. Sheila Jackson-Lee (D-TX), Hon. Ray LaHood (R-IL), Hon. Robert W. Ney (R-OH)

Other: NY Mayor Michael Bloomberg

Uruguay: First lady Maria Auxiliadora Delgado de Vazquez and son Alvaro Vazquez. (AP)
Turkey: Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan
Venezuela: Foreign Relations Minister Ali Rodriguez, Planning Minister Jorge Giordanni. (AP)

Religious leaders:
Metropolitan Kirill, head of external relations for the Moscow Patriarchate. (Patriarch Alexiy II -- who repeatedly refused to meet the Pope -- will not attend) (REUTERS)
Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople Bartholomew I (REUTERS)
Spiritual head of the Anglican Church, Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams (REUTERS)
Chief Rabbinate Director-General Oded Viner (REUTERS)
Greek Orthodox leader, Archbishop Christodoulos (REUTERS)
Turkey's Armenian Patriarch Mesrob II (REUTERS)
Maronite Patriarch Nasrallah Sfeir (REUTERS)
Romania's Orthodox patriarch Teoctist (REUTERS)
Bulgaria's Orthodox Rousse Bishop Neofit and Vidin Bishop Domitian (REUTERS)
Norwegian Bishop Finn Wagle of the Protestant state church (REUTERS)
Swedish Lutheran archbishop, K.G. Hammar (REUTERS)
Head of Uganda's Catholic Church, Cardinal Emmanuel Wamala (REUTERS)
Albanian religious leaders: Selim Muca of the (Sunni) Muslim community, Rrok Mirdita, the Catholic Archbishop, Haxhi Dede (REUTERS)
Reshat Bardhi of the (Shi'ite) Bektashi Muslim sect and Orthodox Archbishop Anastasios of the Orthodox community.
Patriarch of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Abune Paulos