You wouldn't need an info, but that's just a matter of principles.
BTW, I've heard, and I'm only saying it from somebody else's words, that a person has to abandon his original citizenship in order to obtain Russian one. I dunno if it's true though.
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You wouldn't need an info, but that's just a matter of principles.
BTW, I've heard, and I'm only saying it from somebody else's words, that a person has to abandon his original citizenship in order to obtain Russian one. I dunno if it's true though.
AN info????? We lost something in the translation. I meant I won't pay off someone at OVIR if they give me incorrect information.
No, it is not needed to give up home citizenship when obtaining Russian citizenship.
Apparently we did. I thought you needed papers or service not info.
This other person was wrong then.
In my U.S. government class we were told you had to give up your U.S. citizenship. Is my teacher stupid or are there just complications to this :?:Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
This is american business, it has nothing to do with russian regulations
I don't know old rules, but now there is no need to give up that blue passport. Just use the blue when entering the US and the red (Russian) when entering Russia.
Another typical OVIR experience, JB. My experince:
muggins here reads up on the current legislation (a 20 minutes session alone with Rambler and a cup of Darjeeling), goes to OVIR the following day and after queuing for 40 minutes talks to the right clerk behind the right desk and asks the right questions. The clerk is pissed off but gives all the info because muggins here knows what he's after. 15 minutes later he has all the paperwork. Can your husband hang up a picture? For chrissake, people, act like grown-ups. The bureaucrats want you to behave exactly the way you behave. They derive pleasure out of seeing you suffer. Don't give the bastards that pleasure. You can break them, but you can only do it by acting like adults, adults, who have a clear understanding of their rights, adults, who have a well define objective, a goal, adults, who are used to achieving their goals. Educate yourself for every ounce of your ignorance adds up to their strength. And the last but not least - be somebody, be something. Have proxies.
P.S. I admit that the system is not the easiest one, but if you're reasonably fluent in Russian or are acompanied by a native speaker, you've nothing to fear in OVIRs.
As we've discussed in previous threads, Russia is still Soviet in the government offices. Only now those workers in those offices are mad as hell that the rest of the world is getting a better wage and a real pension. So people are getting mean and take every opportunity to make everyone else as unhappy as they are. Being adult, forceful, knowledgable, or shoving a copy of the law in their faces doesn't work. My husband and others have done all of this to no avail. If you are 100% successful at every government office you go to you are either really lucky, have a position in life that those workers fear (political, criminal or friends in powerful places),pay a lot of bribes or don't go to government offices in Russia!
My most amusing OVIR experience:
In Ivanovo OVIR, provincial hick-city, handed over my passport to get it registered and was told to come back in three or four days to collect it.
Me: Can I please have something to prove that my passport is at OVIR? Everywhere else I've been OVIR have given me a stamped ticket to prove that I'm in the process of registering, if they can't do it while I wait.
Her: I don't know anything about that, we don't do that here.
Me: Fair enough, so what should I do if I'm stopped by the police?
Her: Tell them your passport is at OVIR being registered.
Me: Ummm.... "tell them"? You mean I should rely on the assumption that they will trust me without any evidence?
Her: Why not?
Me: Err... I think that's a little risky, especially since I have to visit Yaroslavl by bus tomorrow. You'll forgive me if I don't share your confidence in the local police.
Her: Why would the police stop you anyway, it's not like you look like a Georgian.... NEXT!
Good answer love, good answer...
(incedentally, I didn't get stopped until the day after I'd got my registered passport back. It didn't stop the nice OMON officers who busted the nightclub I'd only just walked into from locking me up along with every other male in the building, but it did mean I was released with a slightly muted apology before the rest of them (my brother-in-law included) were carted off to be arbitrarily found guilty of hooliganism in court without even having been told they were being charged with anything!)
No need to demonize them though. They do the same thing you do: work with clients with cash. It's not like I approve it, there is a reason why I no longer live there, but it's always a two-way street.Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
That IS hilarious, man, I know it's supposed to be wrong and sad, but it's still very funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
Scotcher, :lol:
adoc, I will NOT pay a bribe for LACK of service. A $100 bill doesn't make these folks come up with the right answer or the correct paperwork (or make them any smarter). Money is only good for greasing the wheels if they had a clue to what is the best way to get the job done. Maybe you'd like to share your experience at OVIR where money got you a quick and correct result?
Oh they know what they do alright. You got it all backwards. I am surprized you have not figured it out yet.
On the other hand if you ask my personal advice, I am not your father or anything, but I would say that bribing is wrong too.
So what is YOUR experience with OVIR?
Specifically with OVIR? Never a single setback, I am sorry to disappoint you. I had problems with an American consulate in Canada once, who gave me wrong information that I did pay for, and acted like real asses about it punishing me for their own screwup. Otherwise they were OK most of the time. Canadian Immigration caused me trouble a couple of instances by having sent me wrong papers. The first time I only discovered it reentering the country, so we had a nice little chat with the immigration officer who thought I was trying to invade Canada or something of the kind, but it's all over now. I guess, bureaucracy has no nationality, and you just have to deal with the russian version of it, big deal...
In another case australians issued me a visa, sent me my passport with the stamp in it, and two weeks later started bombarding me with letters demanding to send them all sorts of proofs of my employment and financial situation in order for me to get the visa that I already had. I had a good laugh.
I'm not disappointed, I just question your knowledge of OVIR since it appears you have never personally been there. Russia is NOT like every other country and dealings in Russia are very differant than your dealings with Canada and Australia. When were you in Russia? Where did you stay and for how long?
I stayed there for 27 years thank you very much for questioning my experience in dealing with russian authorities. Your story does not sound too different from what I had to go through with american immigration. On average they were nicer and more professional, but just as screwy on one occasion, the consequences of which dragged on forever. So instead of pointing fingers, just accept it as a part of life.
Oh for the love of God.
This is a frikkin' Russian language forum. It stands to reason that most of the people posting here will be foreigners with an interest in the Russian language in particular, and Russia in general, and as such there are bound to be comments made about things which irritated them when in Russia, just as there are bound to be comments about things which pleased them, or amused them. This is not an attack on your bloomin' motherland.
Let me stress that again in big red letters so it sinks in:
This is not an attack on your bloomin' motherland.
Yes, of course there are things in every single country on the planet that are just there to annoy a visitor, but here's the rub: They are not bloomin' relevant here, 'cos it's a flippin' Russian forum!. Look at the name of the bloomin' site for Chrissakes!
Just because no-one has mentioned immigration officers in Canada, or the ease of recieving a visitor's visa in the UK, or the state of public flippin' transport in Outer Mongolia, doesn't mean we aren't all aware of the chance of problems occurring there too. It simply means that none of that is germain to the subject at hand, the big on-topic , the site's entire [i]raison d
I think the best of all would be to leave offtopic/ontopic question to moderator.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
And drink a frikkin' cold cola to get cool. :wink:
Precisely :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
You had to make those red letters bigger cuz otherwise I can't possibly realize how insignificant and inconsequential this conversation is. You crack me up kids.
Oh I'm cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by N
Don't confuse amused facetious ranting with genuine anger :D
You sure? I still can't get over this much red -hehe. In fact, I have an offer to you: you rewrite this post of yours, but in Russian, and I'll correct your mistakes. Then I'll flame you back in English, and you correct mine. This sounds like a much more productive dialogue, diznit?Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
I propose that we all use Scotcher's disclaimer as our signatures from now on.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
I tried. It is too long. Scotcher, can you summarize your points in a prefereably 5 word sentence? Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
Five words? How is the following one for starters:
______________________________
Never argue with medical condition
Why is is that everyone has decided to pick on Scotcher today? The man has only posted up an opinion on what his views are, the next thing I see is everyone and his mother is sticking the boot in. Personally, I am looking forward to my trip to Russia next month and no doubt i shall probably have a grumble or two at some issues there just as I do here. I will tell you a few grumbles I have of the UK............car tax, council tax, and taxes almost for wiping your own backside! there is lots more I can grumble about, if there is anyone who has not got a single complaint about his own country here is either telling porkies or they walk around with their eyes shut!
The reason Sotcher wrote the sentence in red ( I think ) is to drum it in to your heads some of you people here obviously read to much into what has been typed and not between the lines, anyway, I have said my peace.....us Brits do stick together now and again!
So they busted a night club, eh? Big smegging deal. As if we didn't know the sort of things that go on in those dens of sin. God bless our boys in uniform for tackling the problem so efficiently.
P.S. So you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? What were you doing there anyway? They don't just bust a nightclub if there's absolutely no reason for it. So much drugdealing goes on there that I'd support their effort to crack down on such clubs any day of the week.
Can you do us all a favour please vending machine and just put a coin in it will you, you should change your handle from vending machine to negative machine........its a shame really, I bet you could be a really nice person if you tried!
C'mon LM, wasn't it Brits who invented insulting each other as a way of having a good time? You don't by any chance take it seriously, do you? :D
luvmonsta From now on your negative posts in threads will be ignored. If you have a problem and wish to talk about it (or you need a hand with your punctuation), you're welcome to pm me.
P.S. Talk about a cheesy nick...
Are you an accident-prone person, JB? I don't remember a single post from you where you were satisfied with a service you had received or where you had got something done quickly and efficiently. Isn't it strange that shit always happens to you?
Indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
Yeah, dancing, drinking and having a good time usually.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
Yeah, and God bless your banana-state justice system for processing them all so efficiently eh? No point wasting time with those namby-pamby western liberal ideas such as giving the accused a chance to defend himself, or even telling him that he'd been charged with something in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
Yep, seems like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
We were actually in the process of taking off our coats and handing them in to the cloak room, since, as I said, we'd only just walked in through the door when the fuzz busted in, fully masked-up (which I believe has been illegal for some time now, but hey, this is Russia). Had we been allowed to, our plan was to get blind drunk and the stagger home. Yuri, being a single fella, no doubt had hoped to get himself laid too, though myself, being a married bloke, wouldn't have dreamt of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
You know, the usual stuff people do in nightclubs in, oh, most countries.
Apparently one of the OMON boys got himself killed the week before, so they were looking for the culprits by randomly busting nightclubs in the hope they'd catch some sort of lead. I've no idea whether or not this story is true, but it is what was reported on the local TV news show later in the week, thanks to the fact that someone or other important got caught up in a bust on another nighclub the day after our one.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
Absolutely. Much easier to just bust everyone too, rather than bother with any details such as whether or not anyone actually had any drugs on them. Due process is for whimps, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
So, I've answered all of your questions. Any chance you could answer the one I asked you on page 3? Or shall we all just draw our own conclusions?
Actually VM, @@@@ very rarely happens to me. Anywhere I go in the world people treat me well and respect me. But the truth about OVIR is that it is one of the most inefficient and miserable government departments in Russia for anybody who goes there. A lot of Russians have foreign family or friends and spend countless wasted hours and rubles in OVIR.
And Scotcher, you are so lucky your "experience" wasn't in Moscow. The police force in Moscow is so very dedicated to the fight against drugs that they are experts at finding narcotics on people that have never seen or touched a narcotic in their life.
It's always a difficult assessment to make, of course, but I'd say Russia's bureaucracy is definitely one of the most difficult I've experienced. In total I have visited or spent time in something like 23-25 countries (sorry I can't remember the exact number), and have lived in at least 4 long term; I say this to try to put a little more weight behind my opinion.
Firstly, Russia's location-by-location registration procedure, even for tourists, is unique in my experience, and disgraceful. It's so ludicrous that even Communist China wouldn't demand such a thing of its visitors.
Secondly, what I found special about Russia is the sense one gets that nobody really wants to help you as a customer, client, citizen or tourist - and for foreigners it's the worst. Russians themselves often complain about it but they tend not to realize that things are even more restrictive for visitors (OK, not always true - as a visitor, some doors will be opened to you, but only at great financial cost). The culture of service in the private sector is still very weak, and correspondingly even weaker in the public sector, to the extent that it crosses over into negative territory - they actively try to make your life as difficult as possible.
There is nothing unreasonable about visas, paperwork or queueing per se, of course.
But here's an example which you might find interesting:
In Beijing, travellers often arrive looking to get a visa to enter Russia so that they can take the famous Trans-Siberian railway into Russia and possibly onto Europe. When they arrive at the Russian embassy, the officials look at their Chinese visas, and if they find that the person does not have Chinese residency but only a tourist visa in China, they are refused. These sad travellers, if they are not dissuaded, will have to head all the way south to Shanghai to find a Russian consulate that will actually issue a simple 30 day Russian tourist visa.
They don't actually want you to come to Russia and spend your tourist dollars.
Russia has basically no service economy (if you want to disagree, don't forget that Russia is not just Moscow) and this permeates all the way through the culture - there is a much lower willingness to serve.
If you don't believe me, try phoning a hotel or a University or a government office in Russia, and then in the UK or US and note the difference in how they respond (once they answer).
Hmm.....sounds wonderful almost like my home country, Australia. Try getting service there in your average restaraunt.Quote:
Originally Posted by waxwing
In America Russia is not considered a hot vacation destination. When Yanks want to spend some serious tourist $s they head for friendly territory. But Russian government workers are not just a pain in the **S for their neighbors, a few expats and a summer crop of tourists, but for any country that wants to do business there. Most businesses aren't going to slog through Russian red tape, bribes and rudeness to set up shop when plenty of other countries are friendly and put out the welcome mat.
Unless Russians themselves see this attitude as a huge problem that they themselves need to change, it will continue to be a detriment to their economy and the country will never be successful on a large scale in the world market.
I'm sorry JB if this comes to you as a bit of a rude awakening, but the thing is that most Russians don't want foreign businesses to come to Russia, thank you very much. All we get from Western businesses is substandard service and high prices.
Exactly. We did away with servants in 1917. Since then people are expected to wipe their own backsides. If you want to be pampered by paid sycophants, stay in the West. People in Russia are very proud, please remember that. Next time you scowl at a waiter/salesperson/bureaucrat try to come up with a good reason why he/she should grovel before your royal highness.Quote:
Russia has basically no service economy (if you want to disagree, don't forget that Russia is not just Moscow) and this permeates all the way through the culture - there is a much lower willingness to serve.
Haha.
So, to surmise:
"We don't want your filthy foreign investment or stinking tourist dollars, we want to sit in our squalid and rapidly decaying 3rd-world armpit of a country and wallow in our bitterness at losing the cold war. If it's civilisation you want, go somewhere else!"
I don't know what's funnier, that VM's attitude is so ridiculous, or that from all the evidence he seems to be right! :D
Russia is not a 3rd world country - we are approx. 50 years ahead of most other countries in terms of humanitarian values and rocket science - and we did not loose the cold war - it never ended, my boy. And no, we don't want your tourist dollars - do you seriously believe that a huge country like Russia gives a toss about a few droplets of your greenbacks in the ocean of the mighty rouble? Give me a break, scotcher. And no one's wallowing, everyone's celebrating for we are jubilant for many reasons (none of which you will understand, though). And this is not my attitude, for I speak on behalf of millions of Russians. As I sit in front of my computer, my fellow countrymen are doing your countries - raping and pillaging through your holiday resorts, planeloads and busloads of rude cossacks with their fat wives and screaming children, drinking, debauching, shocking the locals with their uncouth rustic behaviour. Russian partizans in swimming trunks, they aren't at your resorts to satisfy their lust for snorkling, they they are there to do your civiklization. I've spoken to many Russian tourists on their rampages in Europe - those chaps have absolutely no respect for your countries, your cultures. It's very very sad but it's true - we are doing your countries in. I can understand your aggression, scotcher, but I'm afraid I can't do anything about it.