Religion and Christmas in Russia and elsewhere....

Just a thread for anything related to Christmas and New Years' regardless of what date you celebrate, or how you celebrate (if you celebrate at all.... )

PLEASE SHARE YOUR CHRISTMAS CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS!

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Today is the day of the Scandinavian midwinter pre-Christmas festival of light, called "St Lucia" [it's an old pagan / Christian holiday. The celebration involves lots of singing and drinking Nordic glühwein (glögg).]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk0FyZqNp5Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpexX...eature=related
A Lucia procession looks looks like below. All schools, hospitals and workplaces have them, usually very early in the morning.

http://194.237.86.181/bou/ma%20musik.../Huvudstor.jpg

http://www.travelgatesweden.se/wp-co...3%A5gArild.jpg

NO SNOW!!! Global Warming is getting really bad....

http://www.vingaker.se/upload/BILDER/luciat%C3%A5g1.gif

http://sus68.blogg.se/images/2007/lu...27_6605796.jpg

http://www.lulea.se/images/18.324d5a...027%282%29.jpg

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What's your favourite Christmas song?

My favourite is "Oh Holy Night" (French original is "Cantique de Noël")
==================================
"OH HOLY, NIGHT" (fave xmas song)
IN HUNGARIAN with nice pics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghBz17icHIs

By Rein Alexander, a famous Norwegian tenor, singing in Swedish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9gpYR-KWUw
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Last, but not least:

1) I really hate the commercialism of Christmas!. I don't really want Christmas presents from anybody but my very closest friends and family. The hysterical Christmas shopping is actually FREAKY, as if everyone was under HYPNOSIS....

Christmas in England is particularly commercialised. Most people here in the UK do not care about the real meaning of Christmas at all.

Next Christmas I'll go to the coldest and most traditional part of Sweden and have real traditional Christmas among the reindeer! Not joking - my cousins live in that area. This year I am just biting my lip and will stay in London....

http://www.st-dagar2008.se/images_bildspel/renar.jpg

A lot of gifts and food.. Your typical American Christmas. :)

Christmas day we go to church and fellowship there with even more food.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

NO SNOW!!! Global Warming is getting really bad....

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Here is the picture I'v made in front of my home building (located 50 km east from Moscow) at the first day of this winter:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/148/dsc00041gv.jpg

Thank God that now the winter and snow came here at last! http://i.smiles2k.net/cristmas_smiles/5.gif

The lawn in front of your house looks like a golf course in the middle of the summer! Frankly I feel like going to Copenhagen and joining those protesters. at the climate summit. They were right all along!

The "winter" weather in England is almost designed to drive you mental. It's not really cold - but constantly raining and windy. No snow, just grey skies....

Frankly I envy you to be in Moscow right now.
I want snow and -15C... Right now! (but it's not going to happen in London. If it goes below freezing the people panic and one centimetre of snow brings the whole city to a halt... Haha... )

I always thought Moscow seemed like grand place to spend a winter! You have several public skating rinks and things in the centre of town, don't you? Plus people in Russia have cool style of winter clothing I think. What's it like in the other cities where peopl on the forum live? St Petersburg and Novosibirsk, I think?

My grandparents went to Moscow in the middle of the winter a long time ago. They went swimming in a very cool outdoor pool right in the middle of the city and loved it. I read that this pool has been filled up and a Church has been built there.

I fail to see the good sides of snow. The longer it remains absent, the better.

Our Christmas will be a series of family get-togethers with lots of food and presents. No ritual for me, though I expect my wife will take my sons to church on Christmas eve.

Robin

My parents are divorced so I usually have three separate christmas celebrations. Just talking to family and exchanging gifts, nothing too big.

For the following wonderful christmas poem you'll need some basic German vocabulary as it deals with xmas in Germany (Weihnacht). Have fun.

Märry Christmäs, märry Christmäs,
Hear the music, see the lights,
Frohe Weihnacht, Frohe Weihnacht,
Märry Christmäs allerseits.

When the snow falls wunderbar
And the children happy are,
When is Glatteis on the street,
And we all a Glühwein need,
Then you know, it is soweit:
She is here, the Weihnachtszeit.

Every Parkhaus ist besetzt,
Weil die people fahren jetzt
All to Kaufhof, Mediamarkt,
Kriegen nearly Herzinfarkt.
Shopping hirnverbrannte things
And the Christmasglocke rings.

Mother in the kitchen bakes
Schoko-, Nuss- and Mandelkeks
Daddy in the Nebenraum
Schmücks a Riesen-Weihnachtsbaum
He is hanging auf the balls,
Then he from the Leiter falls.

Finally the Kinderlein
To the Zimmer kommen rein
And it sings the family
Schauerlich: “Oh, Christmastree!”
And everybody in the house
Is packing die Geschenke aus.

Mama finds under the Tanne
Eine brandnew Teflon-Pfanne,
Papa gets a Schlips and Socken,
Everybody does frohlocken.
President speaks in TV,
All around is Harmonie.

Bis mother in the kitchen runs:
Im Ofen burns the Weihnachtsgans.
And so comes die Feuerwehr
With Tatü, tata daher,
And they bring a long, long Schlauch
And a long, long Leiter auch.
And they crying: “Wasser marsch!”
Weihnachtsfest is now im Arsch.

(Anonymous American poet)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

My grandparents went to Moscow in the middle of the winter a long time ago. They went swimming in a very cool outdoor pool right in the middle of the city and loved it. I read that this pool has been filled up and a Church has been built there.

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http://club.foto.ru/gallery/images/p.../03/414300.jpg

http://russia.rin.ru/pictures/6561.jpg

This story is more interesting than you think, Johanna.
Originally there stood the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, but it was demolished during the Stalin's reign. They planned to build this on the site:

http://www.muar.ru/press_dossier/2006/brazini/1430.jpg

Read more about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Soviets

This is how it would have looked like today:
http://img1.liveinternet.ru/images/a...enin_66756.jpg

http://i.i.ua/photo/images/pic/9/9/2726799_dae9a896.jpg

To balance this enormous construction in the city's outlook it's been proposed to erect 7 additional hi-rise buildings making 8 in total (in 1947 they were preparing to meet the 800-th anniversary of Moscow).

It has never been built because of the war, but the 7 towers have.

Later the project was abandoned and the swimming pool called Moscow was built.

Wow, interesting pictures. That pool is amazing. It's pretty cool to have an outdoor pool like that in the middle of the city. I haven't heard about anywhere that has it, other than Iceland. What a shame that it had to go. Did anybody here swim in it? Hope the new church is popular then, since it caused the closure of this pool.

The "Palace of the Soviet" from Basil's picture is too "OTT" (over-the-top) I thought. Intimidating architecture.. The statue on the top was just... erm.. not my taste. But from the Wiki article it seems that only the war stopped it from being built. There are some zeppelins in the picture. Cool!

But there is something pretty cool about the architecture of public buildings of the Stalin era. I saw it in St Petersburg and liked it. It's got a kind of clean and forceful classic look to it that is quite attractive and refreshing. Plus, the style is unique and doesn't really exist anywhere else, at least not anywhere that I've been to. Is there a name for this style...? There ought to be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Hope the new church is popular then, since it caused the closure of this pool.

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It is the main Cathedral of the Russian Orthodox church. Some however say that the place is cursed since the original cathedral was demolished and the place defiled.

Here's the full history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedr...viour_(Moscow)

P.S. Also here's the article about those seven high buildings that were built to counter-balance the Palace of Soviets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sisters_(Moscow)

Oh! I 'll check the links.
Sorry, I had no idea it was the main cathedral of the Orthodox religion. :oops:
In light of this information my comment is pretty silly. A swimming pool hardly compares with a major cathedral. Hope it didn't cause offense.

It's completely unbelievable that Stalin would tear that down! In school I remember reading that USSR used churches as storage rooms because nobody wanted to use them for worship anymore. I guess that wasn't the full story!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

A swimming pool hardly compares with a major cathedral. Hope it didn't cause offense.

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Well, I'd prefer a pool. :oops: It was absolutely unique, there's no pool like that now! And the cathedrals are EVERYWHERE. Really. I hope I did not offended anybody either. ;)
I don't advocate those who destroyed the initial cathedral. But tearing down the cathedral to create a pool, and then tearing the pool down to create a cathedral - it's somewhat absurd. I wish people just stick with what they have and stopped destroying things to build something "better".

In our country nothing is impossible. I wouldn't be surprised if they demolish the cathedral again, build a poll there and fill it with holy water. :)

My parents didn't let me to swim there when I was a kid since they said that all kinds of interesting diseases could be caught in that pool. Parasytes, infections, etc.
The reconstruction of the cathedral was PRed everywhere and I'm not surprised that many people supported it.

As an Orthodox christian I prefer to visit smaller churches. I've visited the cathedral once and all I saw there was a HQ of assorted religious officials. It is big, it is ostentatious, and one thing drove me to seizure of laughter - there is a paid parking lot in the basement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Well, I'd prefer a pool. :oops:

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+1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramil

In our country nothing is impossible.

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=)
ЛДПР и КПРФ предложили восстановить памятник Дзержинскому

Партии ЛДПР и КПРФ выступили с инициативой вернуть на Лубянскую площадь в Москве памятник Феликсу Дзержинскому.

http://img.lenta.ru/news/2009/12/18/dze/picture.jpg

Если что, я "за". :tease:

http://www.fsb.ru/images/fsb/foto/lub2002/13.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

In school I remember reading that USSR used churches as storage rooms because nobody wanted to use them for worship anymore.

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Well, "nobody wanted" isn't a proper word. Better to say it wasn't allowed to worship there. During 30s one can be put in GULAG for that and even death punished. At the war years Stalin had to restore the official orthodox church to raise the morale of the Soviet troops. And the usage of former churches as storages and even pig farms was done purposely by Soviet authorites to desecrate former holy places. They wanted to remove religion completely from the peoples minds. And despite the official church was restored in 40s, some churches were reopened and there was allowed to worship there it's still was discouraged till the end of USSR. My mother and my grandmother who was very religious baptised me and my sister very secretly in a small remote village church and kept this fact in secret because my father could loose his job (he was a KGB officer) if his superiors have known that his children are baptised.

Gosh Bas, it's almost impossible to imagine what that was like! Respect for anybody (like your mother) who managed to keep their faith under such circumstances. What a strange situation to keep something important like a baptism secret! But I guess it might be significant in a different sort of way. I mean since she actually had to take a risk for her faith; a bit like the first Christians in Rome!

The way the situation with religion in the USSR was presented to me back then, was that most people there weren't interested in religion anymore. There was a very famous comment by someone in the USSR, a cosmonaut I think. It was "Well we went to the skies but there was no sign of God, so he doesn't exist.." I heard this quoted so many times... It's an incredibly silly and simplistic comment, to be honest (no offense). But to a small kid it's seems pretty definite!

I also heard that some really fantastic orthodox religious artifacts were simply destroyed. I am aware of the motivation for doing that ("religion is an opium...") but I still think it's practically criminal... Somebody who wanted to convince people that socialism was superior should have focused on delivering some practical results rather than destroy the competing worldviews! And people can't exactly pray to Karl Marx and find strength and support when they are having a difficult time... For that, you need religion.

I guess there must have been lots and lots of people who did exactly what Bas' mother did.

In the 1990s I remember reading that many people in Russia became involved in some rather strange sects, and that missionaries travelled there by the thousands to convert people to protestant denominations, or catholicism. Did you come across any such people?

Ave Maria, by Schubert – my other favourite Christmas song...
Anybody who plays the piano must know this one - fun to play on the piano...
Here it is sung by Pavarotti in Italian.. I like it best in German though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2ASBDFjPhs

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I mean since she actually had to take a risk for her faith; a bit like the first Christians in Rome!

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Well, in the 70s as far as I know no one was punished for their believes or so but the logic of keeping the faith in secret was simple: to make a career in USSR one must be a member of communist party. If you are a party member than you must be a materialist. So if it's became known that someone baptised his/her children than he/she can be excluded from communist party and the career was over.

Quote:

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In the 1990s I remember reading that many people in Russia became involved in some rather strange sects, and that missionaries travelled there by the thousands to convert people to protestant denominations, or catholicism. Did you come across any such people?

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Yes, one of my classmates was fallen in one of such sects and became completely insane. I myself met some such missionaries when I was a student in 90s but I sent them directly to their f#$%!ng god (I'v just noticed that in English that sounds like I killed them or so. :D Of course I just said: "А не пошёл бы ты..." that's what I ment by writing "I sent them").

Well I am definitely not one of those Christians who think that everybody must be the same brand of Christianity as me..

Orthodox religion (Russian and Greek) are supposed to be the closest to the Original Chrisitianity from the first century. That makes it pretty interesting! Plus the churches of the orthodox religion are very impressive. (Compare with a Lutheran church, just a plain stone building with white walls inside -- not saints, icons or illustrations on the wall, usually.)

In Sweden the Church is run by the state, and all the bishops are appointed by the state. The state has been social democratic for almost 100 years, so the same is true for the Church. The result of this is that the sermons are ALWAYS about things like solidarity and justice, instead of biblical messages. Plus, it is always prioritising "politically correct" values over biblical values.. I.e. homosexuals can have their "union" blessed in church and plenty more very unbiblical practices. In my opinion they are seriously undermining their own credibility. How can anybody take them seriously when they always change their dogma and do things which are contradictory to the bible? I go to the Swedish church in London sometimes, but only for social reasons, not for religious reasons -- it's like a community meeting place more than a church.

...

Oh he is soooooo cute! :)
He looks like he loves being baptised!

I can't see what the date on the pic says - does it say '03 or '08?
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Does the Orthodoxy have confirmations when the kid is older, like Catholicism and Lutheranism have?

I had mine when I was 13, like most kids in Sweden. You go to a camp for five weeks and come back and have the ceremony in church.

Typical confirmation. Looks a lot "holier" than it is!
http://annakarlsson.webblogg.se/imag...1183919284.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Oh he is soooooo cute! :)
He looks like he loves being baptised!

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He is crying actually. :mosking: Just imagine - some unknown bearded guy with a smell of olibanum is putting him (he was only one y.o., it was his first birthday) into the barrel of water.

Quote:

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I can't see what the date on the pic says - does it say '03 or '08?

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It's '03.

Quote:

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Does the Orthodoxy have confirmations when the kid is older, like Catholicism and Lutheranism have?

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The Orthodox confirmations is taking place immediately after baptism.

:angel: If that was '03 what does he look like now?

...

Very handsome young man!
Nice photo also.. autum colours etc :good:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Very handsome young man!
Nice photo also.. autum colours etc :good:

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Thanks! :)

A few odd notes.

About Christ Cathedral, I'm surprised you didn't mention the neon signs inside! The place was nearly like Disneyland when I was there in '03.

The communists destroyed thousands of churches.

Not only Christians but Jews too had to worship in secret.

When I was in Saint Petersburg in 1986 a guy took me to a church that had been turned into a skating rink. The inside walls still had the original frescos (icons were gone though), but the floor was ice, and people were skating. I wonder if anyone here knows about this church. It would be interesting to know what has happened to it since then.

Neon signs in a church sounds like a bad idea.... Not good for creating the right athmosphere. Anyone has pictures of that?

On the other hand, in Britain there are barbed wires on the windows of old churches, and in some old churches there is wall to wall carpeting (1970s style) Looks dreadful.

The problem across Europe and probably in Russia too is that there are a lot more old churches than there are worshippers... Someone needs to pay for maintenance of the churches and it is hard to justify the expenses when the churches aren't used very much.

In Sweden it's paid for through taxes, becuase the Church is part of the state. But a lot of people are starting to question why they should be paying taxes to the Lutheran state Church - particularly people who say they are atheists, or who belong to a different religion (i.e. immigrants from Moslem or Catholic countries).

In England it's even more complicated and some churches are in very poor repair - they simply can't pay for the maintenance and the buildings are very old.

What is the status of the Orthodox church in Russia now?
Is it the official state religion (part of the state) or is it free-standing?
How is church maintenance and church activities for kids and old people paid for?

Quote:

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What is the status of the Orthodox church in Russia now?
Is it the official state religion (part of the state) or is it free-standing?

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Officially, there're no state religions. The Moscow Patriarchate, though, receives a certain amount of material help. The state provides bodyguarding for the Patriarch. Authorities of different levels time time materially help as well as theyt often decide in favour of the Moscow Patriarchate. The top state officials visit major sermons (like the Christmass liturgy in the Moscow's Christ the Saviour's cathedral). Top province/city, etc. officials often do the same in other churches.

Quote:

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How is church maintenance and church activities for kids and old people paid for?

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1. There are many wealthy Orthodox sponsors, both individuals and companies.
2. Local authorities and enterprises often provide different kinds of material help.
3. Sale of icons, crosses, spiritual literature.
4. There are fixed donations for sermons, unless parish's senior priest allows otherwise.
5. Small-scale private donations and fundrising.
6. Private volunteering. This is mainly building work.

:rose: Thanks Ленивец, very clear answers -- that's really interesting to know.

Someone mentioned unusual sects. Russia has certainly had its fair share of these. For example, the Skoptsy/Скопцы who believed in salvation through castration. The creed was founded in the 18th century but, apparently, there are still some adherents in the Ukraine. Some members of this sect, clearly not believing in half measures, remove(d) everything that normally indicates manhood.

In the 19th century some of them became quite rich since they lived frugally and did not chase after women. Maybe there's a lesson there...

Read more in Russian:http://religion.babr.ru/chr/east/srs/skop.htm

or in English: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy

Quote:

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Today is the day of the Scandinavian midwinter pre-Christmas festival of light, called "St Lucia" (it's an old pagan / Christian holiday. The celebration involves lots of singing and drinking Nordic glühwein (glögg).)

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Johanna, aren't those some really nice pictures!
The children look like little Hyperboreans to me. Long time ago our languages and nations were not yet divided (I'm talking about the ancient European people) and the traditions related to winter solstice were the same for all. Something really makes me believe there were such times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Капитан

Quote:

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Today is the day of the Scandinavian midwinter pre-Christmas festival of light, called "St Lucia" (it's an old pagan / Christian holiday. The celebration involves lots of singing and drinking Nordic glühwein (glögg).)

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Johanna, aren't those some really nice pictures!
The children look like little Hyperboreans to me. Long time ago our languages and nations were not yet divided (I'm talking about the ancient European people) and the traditions related to winter solstice were the same for all. Something really makes me believe there were such times.

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Капитан----
Yes I agree with you -- it's interesting to think about pre-Christian times and what people believed in back then...

Here in England, it's INCREDIBLY interesting and cool to visit the old stone circle areas, which probably had some religious meaning, although nobody quite knows what.

In Sweden we had the Viking religion for about 500 years before Christianity arrived, 1100 a.d. -- but before that.. who knows? Before the Viking era, some Scandinavians built mazes (labyrinths) from stones, on the ground. Some are still maintained. People have looked after them for over 1000s of years, without even knowing what the purpose of them were!

I think you in Ukraine have some traditions in common with Scandinavia, for example Midsummer (Ivan Kupola?) We have some great traditions in connection with that. I think I have heard that Ukraine celebrates it too?

I think (???) that your area of North East Europe was among the last part of Europe to become Christian?

Or is the "Ivan Kupola" tradition from the Baltic states maybe? Anyway I remember singing a couple of songs about that when I was in a choir as a child. The name stuck on my mind because it was also the name of an old ferry/cruise-ship that cruised the port cities of the Baltic Sea. It docked near my house.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I think you in Ukraine have some traditions in common with Scandinavia, for example Midsummer (Ivan Kupola?)

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Ivan Kupala is a pagan Slavic holiday, and it's still celebrated to some extent in many Slavic countries (not only Ukraine).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Kupala_Day

Check beautiful folk songs by the Russian band of the same name:
Their first hit "Кострома" (recommended!) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_0j_38Tda0
"Виноград" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvuoIYBQF94
"Молодость" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnqWC9T-T1c
"Воротечки" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKF9090e1wU
;)

Soviet stamp "Ivan Kupala in Belarussia" (Folk traditions series):
http://dic.academic.ru/pictures/wiki...1_cpa_6354.jpg

Johanna, I was born in Ukraine, but my parents are from Russia. Actually my grand parents are from many parts of Russia, including Urals, Baikal, etc. I know for sure that my grand mother celebrated all those holidays as a kid, but the Soviet Era has wiped out a lot of tradition and replaced it with communist ideology. The situation has changed now, but it is not so easy to return to traditions for those whose parents did not follow them. Somehow I view myself as an Indo-European, not just Russian. And I feel connected to all the proto-European culture, it is layered deep inside my genetic memory which I am still not able to read clearly. BTW the stone labyrinths you mentioned are also found in Northern Russia. Moreover, the people of ancient Crete produced coins with the picture of a similar labyrinth:
http://lah.ru/text/urkovec/labp/ris15.jpg
Compare it to the Trojaborg labyrinth in Sweden.
This may mean that the inhabitants of Crete were somehow related to the above mentioned culture. Maybe the culture expanded as people migrated to warmer regions because of climatic changes. Of course, the current distribution of cultures and ethnicities differs from what it was like back then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I think (???) that your area of North East Europe was among the last part of Europe to become Christian?

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Christianity became official religion in Kievan Rus' (predecessor of modern Russia, Belorussia and Ukraine) in 988:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...ievan_Rus'

Map of Kievan Rus' at that times:

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6...s10151113e.png

The Primary Chronicle reports that in the year 987, as the result of a consultation with his boyars, Vladimir sent envoys to study the religions of the various neighboring nations whose representatives had been urging him to embrace their respective faiths. The result is amusingly described in the following apocryphal anecdote. Of the Muslim Bulgarians of the Volga the envoys reported there is no gladness among them; only sorrow and a great stench. They also said that their religion was undesirable due to its taboo against alcoholic beverages and pork; supposedly, Vladimir said on that occasion: "Drinking is the joy of the Rus'." ("Веселие на Руси питие есть")
Russian sources also describe Vladimir consulting with Jewish envoys (who may or may not have been Khazars), and questioning them about their religion but ultimately rejecting it, saying that their loss of Jerusalem was evidence of their having been abandoned by God.
Ultimately Vladimir settled on Christianity. In the gloomy churches of the Germans his emissaries saw no beauty; but at Hagia Sophia, where the full festival ritual of the Byzantine Church was set in motion to impress them, they found their ideal: "We no longer knew whether we were in heaven or on earth," they reported, "nor such beauty, and we know not how to tell of it." If Vladimir was impressed by this account of his envoys, he was yet more so by political gains of the Byzantine alliance.

In comparison Scandinavia for example became christian a bit later:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...of_Scandinavia

BTW, there is an animation movie about Vladimir made recently that I liked a lot:

http://www.knyazvladimir.ru/

trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLFU4C28w98

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Капитан

but the Soviet Era has wiped out a lot of tradition and replaced it with communist ideology.

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:lol: Ага, особенно Масленицу гнобили :lol: Вообще, к этим языческим традициям претензии были у церкви.

Kiev русь nearly has not accepted an islam.(Киевская Русь чуть не приняла Ислам.)
А вообще от "языческих" традиций осталоcь очень много: по дереву постучать, в зеркало посмотреть, не есть с ножа и др.