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Thread: Meanwhile, in some Muslim countries...

  1. #41
    Завсегдатай Hanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eisenherz View Post
    ohh, if their work was not much use - or if they were just holidaying - then it is ok they were attached???

    Tanzania (Zanzibar) is widely promoting themselves as a tourist destination, and is in fact a very popular destination with travellers from all over the world - it is not as if they tried to visit Somalia.
    Why the hostility? Have I said / done something that irritated you? Please explain! This is the second time you jump on my comment for no apparent reason.

    Obviously it's never OK to throw acid in somebody's face for any reason at all. I simply thought of the incident because it had been in the paper a lot over the last couple of weeks. It usually happens in the Middle East or Indian subcontinent as far as I am aware, first time I heard of it happening in Africa, and to tourists.

    The girls were on a three week volunteer trip and had no qualification other than school leavers certifications.
    It's very doubtful what they could do, that local people can't be trained to do themselves!
    Three weeks is also not long enough to actually learn to do anything properly. .

    It's quite a popular thing in the UK, for young people to go on a trip "volunteering". Usually they pay quite a handsome penny for participating, and go without qualifications and in a very short timeframe. It's hard to imagine what they can do. It would probably be wiser to give the money they pay for flight and accommodation to a local charity, or something like the Red Cross that can engage adult professionals, preferably locals, with a long term commitment.

    For example in the Russian context, I read that there are lots of people from the USA who want to "volunteer" for a month or so, in a Russian orphanage. The problem is; They don't speak the language, so can't communicate with kids or staff. they don't have the any professional skills, and in most cases too young to have had children themselves. Apparently, in most cases, they are apparently primarily interested in tourist, snaps with cute kids, or evangelising their particular faith. Apparently the orphanages feel this is not helpful.

    I think this type of short term "volunteer" tourism is quite superficial. Serious charity is a long term commitment and hard work, not a "cool experience" to brag about on Facebook.

    To really make a difference, you have to spend a longer timeframe, probably at least 6 months, and contribute with skills or assets that are missing locally. It shouldn't be about having a philantropic holiday.
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  2. #42
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Юрка View Post
    Дебора, Вы можете не оправдываться, так как я знаю вашу гуманную позицию по многим вопросам.
    I am not making excuses. My country has a horrible policy of global military aggression. I fight against it in every way I can. I have protested against wars in public. My government does not represent me!

    1) Для начала нужно посмотреть статистику и сравнить, в какой стране убивают и калечат больше. В США или в Сирии с Египтом. Может так оказаться, что помогать бороться со злодеяниями нужно правительству США.
    2) И нужно глубже разобраться в том, что мы видим на фотографиях. Может, это последствия "традиции", которую в наших странах заменяет право? Последствия применения норм права, если их снять и выложить фотографии здесь, тоже могут вызвать шок, так как там будут убитые на электрическом стуле и т.д. И этих убитых в строгом соответствии с нормами права может оказаться в разы больше.
    3) Вы думаете, что в странах Востока нет проституции, супружеских измен и прочего? Есть.
    У нас есть гарантия, что на фотографиях не эти случаи? Нет.

    Вообще, я уверен, что вот так, издалека по фотографиям не понять жизнь этих народов. Эти фотографии похожи на спекуляцию. Глядя на них так и подмывает сказать: "вот дикари". А с другой стороны, не было ли это целью кукловодов нашего мира? Может манипуляция нашим сознанием и есть истинная цель данной подборки фотографий.
    Но даже если на фотографиях чистейшая правда и чистейшее зло, то Запад не может ничего улучшить в этих странах, не уничтожив всё их население.
    If throwing acid in a woman's face is "tradition" - then it is a BAD tradition. I don't think I need to excuse it or justify it, and I am never going to. As regards US foreign policy in the middle east, I oppose all of our military interventions there as do most of my friends. Just because I posted a thread about atrocities in Muslim countries, does not mean I am ignoring what happens in my own country. I have posted many threads about problems in America too, to the point where some might even consider me "un-American."
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

  3. #43
    Увлечённый спикер eisenherz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    Why the hostility?
    hi Hanna, no hostility intended at all (i apologise if it came across like this);
    i just do not agree with you on this point - I can not see how the girls can be blamed for this at all, irrespective of their qualifications etc. I am not arguing the point of whether their work or contribution is useful to Africa or not. For all that i care they could have been tourists to begin with; they surely should not have expected an assault by unknown men (who i believe have been arrested by now) throwing acid at them. South Africa, for example, is by miles a more violant place than Tanzania; hence i also cannot follow the argument that they 'sort of half derserve' this by 'naively' putting themselves into that 'risky' situation. I really think they were merely extremely unlucky by 'being at the wrong place at the wrong time'.
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    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    I have to say that when people blame the victims, rather than the perpetrators of a crime, there is a real problem with these people's thinking process.

    It's like blaming a woman who is raped because of the clothing she wore. Why is the victim, who has already suffered terribly, additionally JUDGED and blamed for what happened? Why are people so quick to say "well, she had it coming! She was dressed like a slut!" instead of laying the blame where it belongs, on the RAPIST who ruined her life?

    Why is it the fault of the little girls who traveled to a foreign country? Why is it that "they should have known better"? Why is it SO HARD to just say, yeah the people who threw acid in their faces are disgusting, despicable excuses for human beings and deserve to be punished severely?
    Lampada likes this.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Старший оракул maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    I have to say that when people blame the victims, rather than the perpetrators of a crime, there is a real problem with these people's thinking process.

    It's like blaming a woman who is raped because of the clothing she wore. Why is the victim, who has already suffered terribly, additionally JUDGED and blamed for what happened? Why are people so quick to say "well, she had it coming! She was dressed like a slut!" instead of laying the blame where it belongs, on the RAPIST who ruined her life?

    Why is it the fault of the little girls who traveled to a foreign country? Why is it that "they should have known better"? Why is it SO HARD to just say, yeah the people who threw acid in their faces are disgusting, despicable excuses for human beings and deserve to be punished severely?
    I believe that by saying so they express their irritation: "we knew, that it was unsafe for them, but the victims themselves didn't. Why were they so stupid?"
    This is wide-spread attitude in Russia too, also promoted by police "Don't have triple steel doors with Italian locks and now you are reporting residential burglary? What do you say: the police should now search for thieves?!! Rubbish!"
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    Строительство туннеля под Ла Маншем начнется одновременно из Англии и Франции, и продлится пять или десять лет, в зависимости от того, встретятся ли строители посередине.

  6. #46
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxmixiv View Post
    I believe that by saying so they express their irritation: "we knew, that it was unsafe for them, but the victims themselves didn't. Why were they so stupid?"
    This is wide-spread attitude in Russia too, also promoted by police "Don't have triple steel doors with Italian locks and now you are reporting residential burglary? What do you say: the police should now search for thieves?!! Rubbish!"
    It's a widespread attitude in the United States as well. One which I really despise.
    maxmixiv likes this.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

  7. #47
    Завсегдатай Hanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eisenherz View Post
    hi Hanna, no hostility intended at all (i apologise if it came across like this);
    i just do not agree with you on this point - I can not see how the girls can be blamed for this at all, irrespective of their qualifications etc. I am not arguing the point of whether their work or contribution is useful to Africa or not. For all that i care they could have been tourists to begin with; they surely should not have expected an assault by unknown men (who i believe have been arrested by now) throwing acid at them. South Africa, for example, is by miles a more violant place than Tanzania; hence i also cannot follow the argument that they 'sort of half derserve' this by 'naively' putting themselves into that 'risky' situation. I really think they were merely extremely unlucky by 'being at the wrong place at the wrong time'.
    Hi - you misunderstood me. I certainly did not mean that they deserved it in any form or shape. There is no excuse for throwing acid on anyone, under any circumstances, and in the case of these girls it was totally unprovoked.

    Whether or not there was any point to their trip to Zanzibar was another question. Obviously this would not have happened if they had not gone there as volunteers. On the other hand no doubt thousands of people were having a nice holiday in Zanzibar at the same time. I personally have moral reservations about going on holidays to much poorer countries and living like a king, while locals who have the same job and education as you cannot afford holidays at all, let alone leave the country. But nevertheless it happens, and it's certainly not an excuse to throw acid on people...


    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    I have to say that when people blame the victims, rather than the perpetrators of a crime, there is a real problem with these people's thinking process.
    If you are referrring to me, I was not "blaming the victims".

    I can't think any circumstance under which somebody deserves this. I don't think they deliberately did anything wrong and even if they had, throwing acid would have been morally reprehensible.

    It was clearly a mistake to mention my scepticism about the girls trip to Africa at the same time as the tragedy of them becoming victims of this cruel and completely pointless attack. I hope they get the perpetrators and lock them away for a long time.
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  8. #48
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    If you are referrring to me, I was not "blaming the victims".

    I can't think any circumstance under which somebody deserves this. I don't think they deliberately did anything wrong and even if they had, throwing acid would have been morally reprehensible.

    It was clearly a mistake to mention my scepticism about the girls trip to Africa at the same time as the tragedy of them becoming victims of this cruel and completely pointless attack. I hope they get the perpetrators and lock them away for a long time.
    Nope, I was not singling anyone out. Just stating that I hate blaming the victims. "Blame the victim" mentality is widespread in my country, and in the world at large. I'm glad that you do not subscribe to this way of thinking, Hanna.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    I am not making excuses.
    Мне кажется, что кто-то кого-то не понял (автоматический перевод не всегда переводит адекватно). То ли Вы меня, то ли я Вас... Ну да Бог с ним.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    If throwing acid in a woman's face is "tradition" - then it is a BAD tradition.
    Я имел в виду "традиционное право". Не всем же народам "повезло" жить по римскому праву, написанному на бумаге. Но традиционное право тоже работает, как ни странно, и помогает держать людей в узде. Например, институт кровной мести.

  10. #50
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Юрка View Post
    Мне кажется, что кто-то кого-то не понял (автоматический перевод не всегда переводит адекватно). То ли Вы меня, то ли я Вас... Ну да Бог с ним.
    Я имел в виду "традиционное право". Не всем же народам "повезло" жить по римскому праву, написанному на бумаге. Но традиционное право тоже работает, как ни странно, и помогает держать людей в узде. Например, институт кровной мести.
    Ну, да. Я не говорю свободно по-русски. Мой уровень - средный. Прости меня, если я неправильно поняла Вас.

    I do not think "blood feuds" are a nice tradition either. But I will never support military intervention into any country. I am a pacifist. I would like to see America send food and medical aid to war-torn countries like Syria and Egypt, rather than sending troops and weapons.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    Ну, да. Я не говорю свободно по-русски. Мой уровень - средный. Прости меня, если я неправильно поняла Вас.

    I do not think "blood feuds" are a nice tradition either. But I will never support military intervention into any country. I am a pacifist. I would like to see America send food and medical aid to war-torn countries like Syria and Egypt, rather than sending troops and weapons.
    Yeah, that's gonna help clean up the results of the dictatorship attack, but how do you eliminate the cause? It's not like I really support the idea of military intervention either, but if only I knew a better way...

  12. #52
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    Yeah, that's gonna help clean up the results of the dictatorship attack, but how do you eliminate the cause? It's not like I really support the idea of military intervention either, but if only I knew a better way...
    It won't immediately eliminate the cause. But setting a good example would go a long way towards eliminating terrorist threats against the US, and might show people that there is a better way to live than just killing each other...
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

  13. #53
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    On the related topic of "blame the victim" mentality - here is a graphic and disturbing account of a woman who was raped in the United States. As if the brutal rape was not bad enough, she then had to contend with emotional abuse piled on her by the investigating police officers. Unfortunately, this is a prevailing attitude among America's law enforcement agencies. They frequently treat rape victims in a judgmental manner, as if they are convinced that the victim is lying - even if the victim is dripping with blood, as this woman was.

    I Am a False Rape Allegation Statistic

    This woman's testimony is shocking and horrific. After she describes the rape, and the behavior of the responding officers, we then get to this part where the police - who clearly despise women in general and thought she "deserved it" - interrogated and bullied her, demanding that she admit she was "lying." This was well after they had arrived on the scene, seen the blood, the bruises, and all the evidence of the rape. Finally, after grilling and threatening her for hours, they coerced her to deny that she was raped. And therefore, she became another statistic in official reports skewed to portray rape victims as liars.

    And over and over they accused me of lying. Alone in this tiny room with two large, angry men, I was doing everything I could to keep from having a panic attack. I couldn’t respond to what they were saying; again, I think I was in shock. And they threatened me with jail time, with a felony on my record, destroying my family, public humiliation (he threatened to call the papers–something he did anyway, because, quote, “the community needs to know there was no threat to public safety”). They said I would be charged with a false report, with terrorizing the public (there was a public awareness campaign initially after my attack, though I didn’t have anything to do with it. After the rape, I did everything I could to maintain anonymity, and only told two people–beyond my family and the cops– that I was attacked. But…I did it for attention, which was why I didn’t tell anyone? I’m just sneaky like that, I guess!). Accusations, threats, anger, pounding the table, over and over and over.

    The detective looked at me. His whole demeanor changed; he tried to seem kind, avuncular. “Tell me you made the whole thing up. This whole thing will disappear. Nothing will happen to you. You can leave, if you just tell me you made it up. Tell me you made it up and you’re sorry for lying, and I’ll let you leave.” I tried to hold out–but I didn’t last long. Honestly, at that point, all I wanted in the entire world was just to get out of that room. There are very few things I wouldn’t have done, if I could only leave. So I looked at him and lied. I said, “I made the whole thing up. I’m sorry.”
    Meanwhile, rapists are allowed visitation rights in 31 states. This means that even if a woman is brutally raped and beaten, her abuser still has the right to visit her and her children and can even make decisions about where they are allowed to live.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

  14. #54
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Saudi Arabia Passes Domestic Abuse Ban For First Time

    Some good news out of Saudi Arabia, as regards women's rights. Domestic abuse has finally been outlawed.

    In a historic move, Saudi Arabia banned domestic abuse this week, outlawing any form of abuse at home or in the workplace.

    The Council of Ministers' approval of the law Monday marks the first time the country has officially recognized domestic violence as a punishable crime. Offenders may face up to a year in prison and a maximum fine of 50,000 Saudi riyal (about $13,300), the Saudi Gazette reports.

    The law will also provide shelter for victims of abuse and ensure the identities of those who report it are kept confidential.

    "This is a good law that serves major segments of the society in the kingdom, including women, children, domestic workers and non-domestic workers," Khaled al-Fakher, secretary general of the government-funded National Society for Human Rights, told Reuters.

    Though domestic abuse typically has been an issue that is kept behind closed doors in the Islamic country, an anti-abuse campaign -- the country's first -- launched earlier this year, urging Saudis to report cases of violence. Backed by the King Khalid Charitable Foundation, the ad featured a veiled woman with a black eye, along with the slogan "Some things can’t be covered. Fighting women’s abuse together."
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Завсегдатай Hanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deborski View Post
    The story of Malala - the little girl who was shot in the head by the Taliban for being too "educated' - summed up in a short, but powerful, cartoon.

    Click on this link for the cartoon: http://i.imgur.com/hjGHtZz.jpg
    I think you unwittingly drunk the kool-aid with this story. Malala may be sweet, clever and well meaning, but she's been hi-jacked to the point that she's is nothing but a very convenient and photogenique trophy in the "war on terrorism".


    Quote Originally Posted by http://rt.com/op-edge/malala-pakistan-girl-war-548
    Although hyped in the West, Malala’s book, which was co-written with the British journalist Christina Lamb, has been banned by Pakistani officials and bemoaned by the Pakistani public, who see more than just a story of a young girl espousing the benefits of universal education.

    Adeeb Javedani, president of the All Pakistan Private Schools Management Association, said Malala's book won’t be appearing on the library shelves of its 40,000 affiliated schools. He also petitioned the government to bar the book from school curriculums.

    ''Everything about Malala is now becoming clear,'' Javedani said, as quoted by Dawn, the Pakistani news agency. ''To me, she is representing the West, not us.''
    Clearly, Malala’s accomplishments have failed to win her hero status in her native land. But the reason for Yousafazi becoming more a source of animosity than virtuosity may have more to do with Western behavior than Pakistani public perceptions per se.


    (...9

    Assed Baig, writing in The Huffington Post, said that while there is no justification for “the brutal actions of the Taliban or the denial of the universal right to education,” there remains “a deeper more historic narrative” that explains the West’s intense interest in the story of Malala Yousafazi.

    “This is a story of a native girl being saved by the white man,” Baig argues. “Flown to the UK, the Western world can feel good about itself as they save the native woman from the savage men of her home nation. It is a historic racist narrative that has been institutionalized. Journalists and politicians were falling over themselves to report and comment on the case. The story of an innocent brown child that was shot by savages for demanding an education and along comes the knight in shining armour to save her.”
    The actions of the West, the bombings, the occupations the wars all seem justified now, "see, we told you, this is why we intervene to save the natives," Baig concluded.
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    So, when jihadists are fighting those in power (the Syrian dictatorial forces, for instance), they're bad, when THEY are in power, they're good???

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    You moderators may erase this post, but I'll still speak out... (Deleted. L.)
    Last edited by Lampada; November 12th, 2013 at 09:55 PM. Reason: Personal attack

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I think you unwittingly drunk the kool-aid with this story. Malala may be sweet, clever and well meaning, but she's been hi-jacked to the point that she's is nothing but a very convenient and photogenique trophy in the "war on terrorism".
    Regardless, I think she is a brave girl and deserves credit rather than to be dismissed as just some kind of western PR ploy...

    If that makes me "unwitting" so be it. There are other things the west does which we could frown on a lot more, than promoting a little girl who is bravely making a stand for education in third world countries.

    I for one admire the girl's bravery and her intelligence. Even if her book was co-authored, I have heard her speak in interviews and she is extremely articulate for a girl her age. In fact, her English was so good it was amazing that it isn't even her native language.

    And having listened to her speak, it wasn't my conception that Malala's goal is to be some kind of western poster child at all. She is actually very opinionated and outspoken. She has incredible courage. No wonder the Taliban hated her and wanted her dead.
    Eric C. and eisenherz like this.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

  19. #59
    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    You moderators may erase this post, but I'll still speak out...(Deleted. L.)
    Next breaking the forum rules will render you a 7-day ban.

  20. #60
    Старший оракул
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada View Post
    Next breaking the forum rules will render you a 7-day ban.
    I didn't even call a single name, neither was I directly responding to anyone's post. Those were just some abstract thoughts. Of course, you're the law enforcement here, but I technically violated nothing.

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