Ilya Frank Method for Language Learning?

Has anyone here tried the "Ilya Frank method" for language learning? If so, what was your experience?

I get the impression that this methid is quite popular in Russia – I've come across lots of links to the website. http://www.franklang.ru/ (has an English section, albeit a small one - click on the link in the left hand panel).

This seems to be 100% not-for-profit.

The method is to read real books as parallel texts and proceed in the book without worrying too much whether you understand the grammar and details of the vocabulary, or not. Eventually it will all fall into place, according to the theory.

With a language like Russian, it seems to me that it's absolutely necessary to use Audio along with the texts, or to use a text that has accents....

Anyway, the method seems good and makes a lot of sense. I wanted to know whether anyone had tried it? How did you get material?

I had a book of Hauf's tales in German; I bought it in one of the central Moscow bookstores. Also, I tried to read some texts I downloaded on the Internet (some in German, some in Polish, some in Norwegian, maybe some other languages). The method seems very useful to me; or, at least, very interesting. Of course it can't teach you to speak and to understand speech, but these are the second step.

I would tend to think that not caring too much for the meaning of what you read will result in poor understanding, and, henceforth, poor learning. But it may be useful in that you will meet many grammatical constructions which do not require thorough analysis. When your brain will have met 1000 times the preposition к each time followed by something in dative case, you will presumably recoil in horror at the thought of uttering, say, к чего. I can't see how you could get a grasp of more complex matters involving not only syntax, but also semantics, like the right usage of verbal aspect, prefixes, such-and-such preposition, word order, and so on. Also because many is lost in translation, relying on parallel texts you will miss lot of subtleties.

I think a better way would be to study seriously for a few months, until you can read books by yourself, even if this feels very tedious at the beginning, eventually you will improve, and anyway you will learn much.

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Originally Posted by Zubr

I would tend to think that not caring too much for the meaning of what you read will result in poor understanding, and, henceforth, poor learning.

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The main point of Frank's method is that you do care about the meaning of what you read, and at the same time, you see how it is exressed lexically and grammatically in the language. If you don't understand what you read, then the reading is not useful, but you do because you see the translation of every sentence part first, and later you re-read the excerpt without any comments and translations, so that you could get into the grammar better.

Thanks both! I have a lot of respect for Zubr's accomplishments in Russian, so any comment by you is definitely worth serious contemplation as far as I'm concerned. You are right, Zubr, that I need to study more before I really try to read a book. When it comes to langauges I am a very slow learner!

Also, Olya's language skills are impressive - interesting to hear that you have tried this method. I am open to test anything, so I will have a go at this. Russian, for me, is much harder than other languages that I have studied. So I want to try lots of methods to see what works best for me...

But I am getting organised for the spring right now - I won't be able to spend much time online after mid-January. So I want to have some material set aside...

Here is a text from Franklang's Russian - Swedish section. It is really intended to be used by Russian people I think.

So how "bad" is the Russian in this text?
Is is just a word-for-word translation or quite decent?

(It only makes sense to use their texts if the Russian is grammatically and linguastically correct. )

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/9021/karlsson.jpg

I can't find any good parallell Swedish-Russian texts online, other than boring and specialised stuff.

Ideally I'd like to find a good Russian contemporary novel in "parallell form. Ideally parallell with Swedish, else with English.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Here is a text from Franklang's Russian - Swedish section. It is really intended to be used by Russian people I think.

So how "bad" is the Russian in this text?
Is is just a word-for-word translation or quite decent?

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Of course it is perfect Russian in this text. Only I don't see Frank's method in this page.

Here's a Norwegian-Russian example of the method:

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I de siste dager (в последние дни) har jeg tænkt og tænkt (я думал и думал = я все думаю и думаю) på Nordlandssommerens evige dag (о бесконечном: «вечном» дне северного лета: «лета на севере страны»; nord: север + land — страна + sommer — лето). Jeg sitter her (я сижу здесь) og tænker på den (и думаю о нем = о дне) og på en hytte som jeg bodde i (и о домике, в котором я жил) og på skogen bak hytten (и о лесе за домиком; hytte — загородный домик, дача) og jeg gir mig til å skrive noget ned (и я отдаюсь /данному занятию/ = принимаюсь записывать кое-что) for å forkorte tiden (чтобы скоротать время) og for min fornøielses skyld (и для собственного удовольствия; «моего удовольствия ради»; fornøielse — удовольствие).

I de siste dager har jeg tænkt og tænkt på Nordlandssommerens evige dag. Jeg sitter her og tænker på den og på en hytte som jeg bodde i og på skogen bak hytten og jeg gir mig til å skrive noget ned for å forkorte tiden og for min fornøielses skyld.

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The Russian text here is 100% correct.

Right, thanks Waterlaz and Olya!
I had misunderstood. Here is am example of a text from the website.

Unfortunately the autor is using a single quote instead of an accent!

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24. Я не ход`ила в д`етский сад (I hadn't attended a kindergarten), потом`у что у мен`я был`а б`абушка, кот`орая заним`алась мной, пок`а род`ители б`ыли на раб`оте (as I had a grandmother who took care of me while my parents were at work). Когд`а я пришл`а в п`ервый класс и ув`идела так мн`ого дет`ей и мн`ого парт в кл`ассе (when I went to the first grade and saw so many children and so many desks in the classroom), мне ст`ало стр`ашно, что я не смог`у всегд`а сад`иться за сво`ю п`арту, б`уду п`утать и с`яду за чью-ниб`удь чуж`ую (I feared that I wouldn't always be able to find: «sit at» my desk and would mix it up with someone else's). По`этому я в`ыбрала втор`ую п`арту в кр`айнем ряд`у (that's why I chose the second desk in an outer row) и просид`ела за ней все три г`ода нач`альной шк`олы (and sat there all three years of the elementary school). Мо`им сос`едом по п`арте был м`альчик Рафа`эль (next to me at the same desk sat a boy named Raphael: «my desk neighbor was»), а на п`ервой п`арте сид`ели Нат`аша и `Юра (and at the first desk there were sitting Natasha and Yura). Мы все б`ыстро подруж`ились (we all quickly became friends) и ч`асто ход`или вм`есте дом`ой или игр`али в шк`ольном двор`е (and often went home together or played in the school yard).Ист`ории из мо`ей шк`ольной ж`изни

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Btw, has anybody read a good book that was written by a Russian author within the last 3 years? (Does not have to be a literary masterpiece, just something entertaining, interesting and contemporary.) Sorry that I don't know about this - it's just because I live in England which doesn't follow the cultural scene in Russia at all.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Btw, has anybody read a good book that was written by a Russian author within the last 3 years? (Does not have to be a literary masterpiece, just something entertaining and interesting.) Sorry that I don't know about this - it's just because I live in England which doesn't follow the cultural scene in Russia at all.

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I'v read those lately, just as you asked: not a masterpieces, rather entertaining and written within the last 3 years :wink: :

http://bookz.ru/authors/akunin-boris/kvest_659.html

http://bookz.ru/authors/sergei-luk_a...otepa_083.html

Я вот тоже прочитал пару отрывков (на французском) и надо признаться, что выше я был строг. Переводы переводами, но всё-таки это должно быть полезно, тем более, что в одной книге («посторонном» Камю) вместе с переводом есть толкования и объяснения об особенностях грамматики. Перевод кое-где буквален и неверен, но боюсь, что это необходимо.
Надо прибавить, что они выбирали книги, написанные довольно несложным языком, а не то в переводе пропало бы слишком много, по-моему.

I was just checking out the books that were recommended by Basil77. I remembered that I had actually heard about B. Akunin but forgotten it. So decided that I preferred the "Pelugia" series over the one that Basil recommended (Kvest).

But when I was looking for the audio an e-book. I realised that the book has just been filmatised (in 2009) apparently! Somehow it ruins the pleasure of reading a book (I think) to know that it's been filmatised.

Has anyone seen the series? According to the site I looked at:
"Продолжительность: 8 серий по ~44 мин"
I guess this must have been for TV.

http://pic.ipicture.ru/uploads/090916/OGCJvPp1Gh.jpg

Anyway - in order to try something like the Frank method I need to find:

1) An interesting title
2) e-book in Russian
3) e-book in Swedish or English
4) Audio book in Russian...

just looking for it right now....

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I was just checking out the books that were recommended by Basil77. I remembered that I had actually heard about B. Akunin but forgotten it. So decided that I preferred the "Pelugia" series over the one that Basil recommended (Kvest).

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I agree that "Pelugia" trilogy is definetely better than Akunin's last works, but it doesn't match one of your criterias: "written within the last 3 years ". :flazhok:

Out of curiosity Johanna, why are you specifically looking for a contemporary novel? If you pick something more "classical" you should easily find translations and audio readings, even for not-so-old books (like soviet literature).

Johanna, if you're just looking for a novell which uses modern Russian (that is not Dostoyevsky's language), try Strugatsky brothers.

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Originally Posted by Оля

Johanna, if you're just looking for a novell which uses modern Russian (that is not Dostoyevsky's language), try Strugatsky brothers.

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I agree. If you'll choose them I recommend "Понедельник начинается в субботу", it's one of my favorite books! :good: Unfortunately it may be quite uneasy one for a beginner :upset: .

I'd say Strugatskys' language is too hard for those whose level is lower than advanced or at least intermediate.

Zubr - I just thought that reading something newer would be a better way to learn more about Russia as it is today... (A lot of my knowledge about Russia is based on things that I learnt in the 1980s or 1990s - completely different from now... )

When I saw Basil77s recommendation I got interested in Akunin - I don't know much about that era in Russia's history either - turn of the century.

As for my experience of Russian/Soviet litterature -- it's almost exclusively from school were we read lots from Russia in very short time, for a subject called European Litterature. Some older classics and a few short stories... As for Soviet books, as I remember it, the ones I read were very intellectual / "heavy" novellas that were not easily digested.. For my langauge challenge I want something engaging and entertaining..

But you know -- I think I just don't know enough about Russian litterature!

Perhaps you can recommend something that is likely to fit the criteria? What have you enjoyed yourself? It needs to be interesting enough for me to keep struggling on through difficult grammar and vocabulary... I'd be really grateful for a tip.


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Edit - oops I didn't see the other responses.

Yeah, well my level is very basic and I am a slow learner... (anybody who has seen my grammar questions will know this... )

However, I'd do this to TRY an new approach. I'll probably start over Christmas.

I'll check the Strugatsky Brothers. Cheers Ollie for the tip!

http://www.amazon.com/Russian-Stories-D ... 527&sr=8-1

certainly not within the last three years, but it's one of the very few (almost non-existant) books with En-Ru parallel texts.

I read "The Little Prince/Le Petit Prince" by Antoine de Saint-Exupery this way. It was a nice experience. I actually think it was the first book I read in French. I also have "The Little Witch" by Preussler in German but I can't get round to reading it because my German is still very rudimentary... almost non-existent, as a matter of fact... :(

I generally prefer 'normal' books, though. I'd rather do it 'old-school' -- looking up unfamiliar words in a dictionary, putting them down in a notebook and so on. But if there are books for studying Russian in this way, they may prove very useful because of the stress -- in 'normal' books it's not marked.

As for contemporary Russian authors, I think books written as early as the beginning of the 20th century can be considered modern enough. Or at least those that were written from the 1950s onwards. Well, Оля will correct me, if I'm wrong, I'm no philologist, but their language seems quite contemporary.

I actually don't read modern authors, I'm not yet done reading classics, :) but the one book I heard a lot about is "Bury me behind the skirting board" by Pavel Sanaev ("Похороните меня за плинтусом" Павел Санаев). A screen adaptation has just come out, but I haven't seen it yet. Here is an excerpt from the book -- http://ruskino.ru/pavel/povest.php. Apparently, it's an autobiographical novel describing the author's horrible childhood with his autoritarian grandmother. I suppose it's somewhat depressive and it might be a bit difficult.

Therefore, I'd rather recommend reading some children's stuff, like short stories by Viktor Dragunsky or Nikolai Nosov -- they're fun, easy and short.
http://www.lib.ru/PRIKL/DRAGUNSKIJ/denis.txt
http://www.lib.ru/NOSOW/fantaz.txt

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Originally Posted by starrysky

Оля will correct me, if I'm wrong, I'm no philologist

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Guys..... I AM NOT EITHER!! :D

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Originally Posted by Оля

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Originally Posted by starrysky

Оля will correct me, if I'm wrong, I'm no philologist

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Guys..... I AM NOT EITHER!! :D

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Are you not?!! I was sure you were -- you know everything about commas! :P

Шерлока Холмса из меня явно не выйдет...

ETA: Today I have finished reading book three of the trilogy by Alexandra Brustein. I have come to really love this trilogy -- though it's a children's book, it is interesting to read for an adult as well -- my mum is also reading it with me, she's now in the middle of the second book and loves it! So I would recommend it to anyone -- it has sufficiently easy grammar, a lot of humour and jucy spoken language, it's amusing and thought-provoking. Though a children's book, its language is quite sophisticated so it might be a bit difficult...

It was written in the 1950s, so in terms of language I think it qualifies as a contemporary book. It is an autobiography, so it tells the story of Brustein herself growing up in 1890-1900s in Vilnius which was part of the Russian Empire before the Revolution of 1917. It might be a bit biased, of course, but it's very humane and talk eloquently about many political issues of the time, including the Dreyfus affair. And it really shows how the revolution came about in Russia.

Here's the text: Book 1 "Дорога уходит вдаль" http://www.lib.ru/PROZA/BRUSHTEJN/doroga_1.txt
Book 2 "В рассветный час" http://www.lib.ru/PROZA/BRUSHTEJN/doroga_2.txt
Book 3 "Весна" http://www.lib.ru/PROZA/BRUSHTEJN/drg3.txt

About the book: http://booknik.ru/reviews/fiction/?id=10759
http://booknik.ru/context/?id=17081

And it's available at ozon.ru http://www.ozon.ru/?context=search&text ... 2%e5%e9%ed

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Originally Posted by starrysky

Are you not?!! I was sure you were -- you know everything about commas! :P

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Я один год отучилась на филфаке в платном вузе - мне однокурсник (отличник, между прочим) мог прислать смс-ку типа "поздравляю с успешной здачей экзамена". А уж что и как писали у нас не-отличники - вспомнить страшно. Так что о чем вы говорите... Дипломы ничего не значат, особенно сегодня.
А запятые я из художественной литературы, изданной в советское время, выучила. Там всё на месте было.

Well I am trying to organise to use the first "Pelagia" book, by B. Akunin as a parallel text - more or less following the Frank method...

I've already got the Audio and the text in Russian.
I am working on getting the text in English (see Silly Questions topic). Unfortunately there is no English Audio.
EDIT: Yes, there is an English audio, and it is available on Audible. (has not been pirated yet). So I will buy it and share with anyone who is interested.

If a Russian person wants to study the text at the same time, then me and another English speaker can simply record the text chapter by chapter, and upload...

Perhaps it would have been better to follow Zubr's advice and stick with an older classic text which is available for free everywhere and has been recorded in all langauges. But I wanted to try something more modern...

Let's see how it works out....

The two people who are REALLY good at linguistic style are Zaya and Ivan, I think. Probably Bitpicker too....

Personally I only know the basics, and sometimes I ignore it on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Perhaps you can recommend something that is likely to fit the criteria?[/b] What have you enjoyed yourself? It needs to be interesting enough for me to keep struggling on through difficult grammar and vocabulary... I'd be really grateful for a tip.

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I wish I could help, but I've chosen to get into Russian literature from the beginning - I mean chronologically. I plan to read "classical authors" from Pushkin up to soviet times, so I'll probably not be able to discuss modern writers before a couple of years. :wink: The only contemporary works in Russian I've read yet are Anna Ahmatova's "requiem" (a poem) and Nina Berberova's "the italics are mine" (an autobiography which you most likely don't want to read, unless you are interested in the life of Russian emigrants in France during Soviet times, and want to learn some anecdotes about Nabokov, Gumiljov, Gor'kij and others).

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Originally Posted by starrysky

I read "The Little Prince/Le Petit Prince" by Antoine de Saint-Exupery this way. It was a nice experience. I actually think it was the first book I read in French.

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Да, любой, кто решит изучать французский, вначале прочтёт эту книгу. А между тем, мало кто во Франции читал её. Я сам и не читал до того, как мне посоветовала итальянская подруга, которая начала с этой же книги. :crazy:

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Originally Posted by Zubr

Да, любой, кто решит изучать французский, вначале прочтёт эту книгу. А между тем, мало кто во Франции читал её. Я сам и не читал до того, как мне посоветовала итальянская подруга, которая начала с этой же книги. :crazy:

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Правда? Странно. :shock: Вроде такая известная вещь.

P.S. I have a question for those people who have read Akunin. Or two questions. First -- OK, these books have been written within the last ten years, but is their language modern? As I understand it, they relate events which happened about a hundred years ago, so while in terms of grammar they might be modern, you certainly won't find words there such as "mobile phone", etc? Instead, the language must include a lot of words that have gone out of use, like "ибо" or the "-с" particle.
Second question -- I don't know what to give my mum for New Year, but she is really into mysteries and detective stories. She has never read Akunin. If I decided to buy her one of his books what would be the best to start with? :?: The one Johanna is going to read about Pelagea?

You can download these. George Orwell's 1984. One in English and one in RU. There are many other books and writers on the other pages.

http://www.orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/russian/
http://www.orwell.ru/library/novels/1984/english/

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Originally Posted by starrysky

ETA: Today I have finished reading book three of the trilogy by Alexandra Brustein. I have come to really love this trilogy -- though it's a children's book, it is interesting to read for an adult as well -- my mum is also reading it with me, she's now in the middle of the second book and loves it! So I would recommend it to anyone -- it has sufficiently easy grammar, a lot of humour and jucy spoken language, it's amusing and thought-provoking. Though a children's book, its language is quite sophisticated so it might be a bit difficult...

It was written in the 1950s, so in terms of language I think it qualifies as a contemporary book. It is an autobiography, so it tells the story of Brustein herself growing up in 1890-1900s in Vilnius which was part of the Russian Empire before the Revolution of 1917. It might be a bit biased, of course, but it's very humane and talk eloquently about many political issues of the time, including the Dreyfus affair. And it really shows how the revolution came about in Russia.

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T

This books sounds really interesting. I am not sure if I am ready to read something without parrallel translation, but if I did, this would be perfect. The biographical aspect is fascinating.. I'm making a "mental note" of this, for sure.

We'll see how the Pelagia thing works out, right now I am having some trouble accessing the text... Might have to spend some time in the weekend manually pasting everything into Word.

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Originally Posted by Zubr

Я [s:fwgax519]сам и[/s:fwgax519] и сам не читал [s:fwgax519]до того, как мне[/s:fwgax519] пока мне не посоветовала моя итальянская подруга, которая начала с этой же книги. :crazy:

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Interesting to hear about Zubr's experience with reading the Russian classics.
I could never do that - I am too pragmatic and I primarily want to speak with people and use Russian for practical reasons such as work and travelling.

But I really admire people who learn a language out of love for littarature in that language. T

A Swedish girl who is also learning Russian online learned in the same way; she went from no skills straight onto Dostoyevsky etc. She made the comment that she was able to read almost anything but wasn't able to understand a simple dialogue in a film without subtitles...!
Intriguing extreme situation.

My personal view is that I'll pass on the litterature for the time being, but I DO want to be able to participate in a serious discussion and write a simple business letter or personal email without making any serious mistakes.

My concern is that the Russian grammar is so hard that it doesn't matter how good my vocabulary gets... that I'll mess up the grammar regardless.

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Originally Posted by Оля

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Originally Posted by Zubr

Я [s:2jjhqf1m]сам и[/s:2jjhqf1m] и сам не читал [s:2jjhqf1m]до того, как мне[/s:2jjhqf1m] пока мне не посоветовала моя итальянская подруга, которая начала с этой же книги. :crazy:

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Ой, что со мной... Спасибо Оля, я стыжусь своей ошибки с «пока». :wall:

Johanna, I think your friend should have used audiobooks. They are *great* for improving your listening comprehension. A few weeks ago a rather famous Russian theater director called Lev Dodin came in Paris and half a dozen of plays were played, all in Russian of course. I could understand most of what was said. As I got used to the actors' voices and speech peculiarities I wouldn't even notice they spoke in Russian. One of the plays (based on Dostoyevski's «Бесы») was 7 hours long. If was wonderful. My English is just too limited to tell you how much we, the audience, loved it. If you go to St-Petersburg someday, his theatre is called «малый драматический театр». Go there - you won't regret it.

Anyway one of the bad side of reading classical is that from times to times you'll use archaisms like saying «полно» when you mean «хватит». But you can still make yourself understood most of the time, I think.

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Originally Posted by Zubr

Ой, что со мной... Спасибо Оля, я стыжусь своей ошибки с «пока». :wall:

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Don't. :wink: Your Russian's great. What is language learning without an occasional mistake? Though as a teacher and translator (and a perfectionist to boot) I do hate it when I do mistakes myself.
I absolutely admire you for reading Russian classics in the original. As we say here, "это вам не баран чихнул". I'm working through English classics myself but I don't do it chronologically. Just according to where my fancy leads me next. I hope to get to French lit some time soon -- Balsac, Zola, Hugo, Dumas, Jules Verne... We had a lot of French lit at the uni but I haven't read everything. Herve Bazin is the one writer that I remember really liking. And Robert Merle. But he was easy. I anticipate a lot of hard work with vocabulary -- Harry Potter and Gavalda in French is one thing, Flaubert is quite another... Anyway, reading for one's own pleasure is much more fun than doing homework. *rubbing hands in anticipation*

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She made the comment that she was able to read almost anything but wasn't able to understand a simple dialogue in a film without subtitles...!
Intriguing extreme situation.

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Hmm... I don't find this surprising. Listening is a very special skill, it doesn't come naturally through just "knowing" the language, it should be trained intensively. You may know the words, but won't recognise them because they're tied with other words in one quick stream of speech. You should accustom your ear to picking separate words out of that flow.
Besides, films may be harder to understand because of special vocabulary, etc. I'd say that talking to ordinary people might be easier. But you'll also need to learn lots of ordinary, everyday words, like the "(rubbish) bin"/"trash can", etc.

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My concern is that the Russian grammar is so hard that it doesn't matter how good my vocabulary gets... that I'll mess up the grammar regardless.

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Most likely, you'll still be understood, but yes, knowing a bit of good grammar definitely promotes understanding. As with any language, really.