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Не отрицаю, иногда грешен на петросянщину, каюсь. Буду исправляться.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Кстати о Кабале: Кабала (книга) — ВикипедияQuote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Не всё, что на первый взгляд кажется петросянщиной является таковой. ;)Quote:
It's not about the Matrix, really. Have you happen to read Stanislaw Lem "Osmotr na meste?"Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
:no: Все равно петросянщина.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Петросянщина - это форма. Если хотя бы на одном из слоев перепетросянило, - все, более глубокие слои накрылись. Исключение - только та самая буквальная истина.
Вот не помню, каюсь. Лем, конечно, наше все... Но я начал с "футурологического конгресса" и после него многое просто не отпечаталось. :DQuote:
It's not about the Matrix, really. Have you happen to read Stanislaw Lem "Osmotr na meste?"
Месье - пуританин и ортодокс. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
В частности, там на планете Энция была такая сущность - этикосфера, основу которой составляли искусственно созданные атомы, а их контроль осуществлялся логическими элементами - шустрами исходя из общих этических принципов в попытке реализовать среду максимально благую к её обитателям. Этикосфера была неодушевлённой и не персонофицированной. Однако, мистически настроенные энциане собирались на спиритические сеансы и вызывали дух этикосферы. А поскольку это не нарушало ни один из этических принципов, этикосфера просто выполняла заказ и синтезировала некие абсолютно материальные псевдоразумные сущности типа приведений, духов, умерших родственников, и т.д. Каждому свой по желанию. Верит, допустим, энцианин в души умерших эктоков - пожалуйста, вот они. Верит в чудеса - пожалуйста, вот тебе чудеса. Коль скоро это никому не приносит вреда. Очень плотно и вразумительно написано. Матрица с её огромным количеством ляпов отдыхает и нервно покуривает в сторонке.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Wait till they start convering heathens who use other search engines, browsers and/or operating system. By the sword if necessary. All churches do that at some point.Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
Н-да. пожалуй, что и вообще не читал. Как же это я... Ну да, сумма технологии и коммунизма.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
А Матрицу мы любим не за точность деталей, а за доходчивость и афористичность. Кстати, в первой Матрице (сиквелы не считаются) кое-какие ляпы поддаются неочевидным объяснениям. В свое время по горячим следам я даже выкладывал в сеть текст с переинтерпретацией картины мира Матрицы на основании косвенных свидетельств и умозаключений.
Кстати, там неочевидно, что этикосфера - это коммунизм. Распределение собственности описано не полностью. Что есть - это квоты на количество энергии на энцианина в какой-то период времени. Хочешь - создавай и разрушай дворцы целые два дня, а хочешь - кушай исключительно рябчики. Не предусмотрено ни одолжить энергию в долг, ни получить под неё процент, ни поделиться с другими на каких-либо условиях. Кто решает как устанавливается квота - неясно. У Лема этикосфера - лишь логическое развитие общества потребления. На той же Энции абсолютно открытому обществу этикосферы противопоставляется абсолютно закрытое общество политохода. В общем, добавь в список "прочитать".Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
А вот с этого и надо было начинать. Давай ссылку, помозгую на досуге.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
So are Greek Orthodox and Russian Orthodox more or less the same?
I noticed that they were clubbed together in the chart that Ramil linked to.
I thought the chard was pretty good although I am only aware of the main differences between protestants and catholics. The rest is pretty much unknown to me...
When I go to church here in the UK, I go to a Baptist church, mainly because I know some people there, it's really close to my house and the minister is very good. I haven't noticed anything that's different from Lutheranism, other than less emphasis on formality and lithurgy.
A question for the Orthodox Christians here:
Do you think that the Russian Orthodox church lost some of it's credibility during the Soviet era, or do you think that it's stayed true to it's creed?
I read a comment on a news paper article were someone were saying that the Russian state and the Church are now TOO close, instead of the opposite way around earlier. The comment was claiming that the church is getting more influence and money than it deserves, and that it is in cohorts with the United Russia party. Is this a common opinion? (That doesn't seem very shocking to me, coming from a country that has a "state church" there are some benefits with this system as long as it is not abused.)
А технократический коммунизм и есть лишь логическое развитие общества потребления. Подразумевается, что потребление таки имеет физиологический предел и с развитием автоматизированных производящих и обслуживающих мощностей выходит на насыщение, так что квоты - это только защита от полного идиота с необузданной фантазией, не более того.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
У меня в этом списке... Вместо этого сериалы с женой смотрю. :(Quote:
В общем, добавь в список "прочитать".
Разоблачение Матрицы.Quote:
А вот с этого и надо было начинать. Давай ссылку, помозгую на досуге.
Необходимые дисклеймеры:
1) Это было 8 лет назад, сейчас что-то не помню, что-то написал бы иначе, наверное.
2) Это было не исследование (исследованиями я как раз тогда был сыт по горло), а выплеск, и доводить его до уровня качества исследования я не хотел (и не хочу).
The question has wrong address. :) The Orthodox Church should not be criticized by the Orthodox Christians. It's a necessary condition of the religion. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Okay, so I asked this of my sister-in-law, who is VERY Catholic/Religious... attends church every Sunday and such... and she looked at me as if I had three heads. She was like "What do you mean, God is called Jesus? Jesus is God's son. They are not the same."Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
And then what about the Creeds? They don't say anything about God AND Jesus being the same or calling God by the name Jesus.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText
Quote:
The Credo
The Apostles Creed
I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
Quote:
The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
More or less. Close to a point they recognize each other and the titles of the clergy. )))Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
I'd say, yes. But they lost their credibility even more during the post-Soviet times, because of this you wrote about:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Russia is a multi-confessional state and the way they're throwing Orthodox Christianity at people's faces turns even the stomacs of faithful christians (or at least some of them). The church must not mess with politics which they do all the time. There are too many officials and politicians in the ranks of Russian Orthodox clergy. This doesn't mean that all of them are corrupt. Some still do what they must do as priests and provide as little comfort as they can to the followers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
I visit a church nearby from time to time, but I feel more 'connected' to God when I'm outside. )))
This is the matter about the word 'Lord'. It is translated as Господь in Russian -- basically the same as god.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
The Nicene Creed in Russian
Веруем во единого Бога Отца, Вседержителя, Творца всех видимых и невидимых.
И во единого Господа Иисуса Христа, Сына Божия единородного, рожденного от Отца, то есть из сущности Отца, Бога от Бога, Света от Света, Бога истинна от Бога истинна, рожденна, не сотворенна, единосущна Отцу, Имже вся быша, яже на небеси и на земли; нас ради человек и нашего ради спасения сшедшего, и воплотившася и вочеловечшася, страдавша и воскресшего в третий день, и восшедшего на небеса, и паки грядущего судити живым и мертвым.
И во Святого Духа.
Глаголющих же о Сыне Божием, яко бысть время, егда не бе, или яко преже неже родитися, не бе, или яко от не сущих бысть, или из иныя ипостаси или сущности глаголющих быти, или превратима или изменяема Сына Божия, сих анафематствует Кафолическая и Апостольская Церковь. Аминь.
And in Latin (I'm not an expert, but see the bold words -- the only-begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father):
Credimus in unum Deum Patrem omnipotentem, omnium visibilium et invisibilium factorem.
Et in unum Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum, Filium Dei, natum ex Patre unigenitum, hoc est, de substantia Patris, Deum ex Deo, Lumen ex Lumine, Deum verum, de Deo vero, natum, non factum, unius substantiæ cum Patre, quod Græci dicunt homoousion; per quem, omnia facta, sunt, quæ in cælo et in terra; qui [propter nos homines et] propter nostram salutem descendit, incarnatus est et homo factus est, et passus est; et resurrexit tertia die, et ascendit in cælos; venturus judicare vivos et mortuos.
Et in Spiritum Sanctum.
Eos autem qui dicunt: erat, quando non erat, et antequam nasceretur, non erat, et quod de non exstantibus factus est, vel ex alia, substantia aut essentia, dicentes [creatum, aut] convertibilem et demutabilem Filium Dei, hos anathematizat catholica [et apostolica] ecclesia. Amen.
But the concept of Trinity says basically that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spririt are one.Quote:
And then what about the Creeds? They don't say anything about God AND Jesus being the same or calling God by the name Jesus.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity_of_Jesus
Wow, some very "advanced" Christians here!
I want to ask about the Patriarch. What precisely is his exaxt role in the Orthodox church.
How many patriarchs are there?
(sorry about my bad English earlier, full of typos!)
Ну, в принципе контакт есть. Идея консервации социума довольно симпатичная. Это, в частности, объясняет зачем общество Матрицы смоделировано в прошлое (20-й век). Допустим, машины расчитали, что экология улучшиться за, скажем, 200 лет. Тогда, повторяя свой путь развития, общество Матрицы придумает системы транспортации и вооружения вроде экранопланов и экзоскелетов и ничуть не удивится (=не получит культурного шока) будучи "освобождённым" в своё время. Но после второго и третьего фильма эти разумные доводы теряют свою привлекательность в силу нелогичности сюжета. Особенно меня в своё время озадачила фраза из 3-й Матрицы о том, что машины разрушали Зион уже несколько раз (sic!) и умеют это делать очень эффективно. Кто же и как воссоздавал Зион все эти разы? Вообще проблему энергии создатели Матрицы обходят очень лихо. Ну, допустим солнечные батареи не работают и машинам нужны для этого люди, а Зион-то откуда берёт свою энергию? Своих людей положили в подобные койки? Или у машин умудряются воровать? На какие джоули и на каких заводах создаются боеприпасы для ходячих экзоскелетов? А уж то, что Нео в городе машин магически всё видит, и машина зачем-то имитирующая человеческое лицо вообще имеет какое-то дело с Нео наводит в итоге на ту же мысль: так называемая "реальность" - лишь второй слой виртуального восприятия. Матрица и "реальность" - суть две параллельные виртуальные реальности. Зачем и кому всё это нужно - непонятно. Можно строить абсолютно любые предположения. Допустим, одни разумные сущности играют за роботов, а другие - за людей в сетевой игре. У каждого своя "миссия" для "прохождения". И т.д.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Если предположить, что "люди как батарейки" - миф для лопухов и констатировать интегрированность Зиона с инфраструктурой Матрицы, то энергия вообще не актуальна - мало ли какие реакторы прохладного синтеза и анализа закопаны за кадром.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Что касается отсылов ко второй и далее Матрицам, я их просто не смотрел - выключил после первого же дебильного диалога или монолога, не помню, чтобы не расстраиваться.
So, IF Jesus and God are the same, then why is Jesus seated at the right hand of God? How can you sit next to yourself? :wacko:
Quote:
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
Well, I guess a better question is how could he ever sit as a spirit? So, you know, there's always a canonical interpretation to those things. Like, it's been an allegory to somehow understand things that are beyond our logical grasp blah-blah-blah. Other religions are no better in this respect. In Judaism, for example, you have a very nice little concept of Tzimtzum Tzimtzum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which basically tries to reconcile a logical discrepancy between the monotheistic 'infinite' definition of God and the fact that the humble finite species could exist bearing their own personal responsibility (and thus a potential personal reward or punishment).Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
I think that God can empower any number of 'physical' bodies with his essence or here's where the Holy Spirit fits.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
Could God by any chance create a stone heavy enough so that He won't be able to lift it? ;) It's been known for long time that you can't (and shouldn't) ask logical questions or request for a logical explanation. You should just believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Buddhism is considered to be perfectly rational in its core. Any comments? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Tell me, my dear Crocodile, have you ever heard of Schroedinger's cat and the superposition principle? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Unfortunately, I'm not as familiar with Buddhism as with the other religions. All I know Judaism appears to be very logical thanks to the countless arguments of very smart people over several centuries. Until you dig a bit deeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
If you start speaking Quantum Physics to me I'm washing my hands. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
But when those scientists start talking about a cat being dead and alive at the same time, you take their word for it and at least pretend you believe, don't you? The more I learned about astrophysics the stronger my belief in God became.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
After reading this discussion about the conception of Jesus being the God, it became more clear for me why we, Orthodox Christians count Easter the main religious holiday (the holiday more dedicated to Christ's divinity), while for Catholics and Protestants main holiday is Christmas wich more dedicated to his human incarnation.
Yeah... the famous "there are believers among the physicists too"... I've been through that. Here's what I have to say. There are people who sense something more than the other people do. Those people have existed at any time in history, in almost any cultural/religious context and they have explained their actions rather differently. Biblical and shamanic, monotheistic and pagan religions had implied different rituals, but the result was pretty much the same (or at least comparable). So, that means those chosen people don't know at all how they do it. In my opinion, a religion is an unfair attempt to capitalize on those special abilities. Dixi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Despite my beliefs I sometimes disapprove of church and religion even in their 'finer' forms. This doesn't diminish my faith, but wrapping your mind in canonical dogms is not the best way to comprehend God.
I feel like the situation with Buddhism is quite opposite. Countless modifications of completely insane people over millenia were unable to overthrow Gautama's rationality. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Heavy Mysteries, one of my favs... :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yessvOjnUBA
This also always seemed odd to me that people celebrate his birth so much more than the miracle of his re-birth. There would not be a Christmas if not for the Easter, correct? So, why is the emphasis not placed on celebrating, worshiping, making atonement on Easter? I never understood that. I'm glad to see that I'm now not the ONLY person. THANK YOU, Basil!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Yeah, I realize you're a heretic. It's ok, we won't burn you for that. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
"...Once a week, Father Russell would come in for "Heavy Mystery" time. And you'd save all your weird questions for Father Russell. In fact, you'd make up strange questions. You'd take a whole week thinking up trick questions for Father Russell. "Hey, hey, hey Father! Hey, uh, if God is all-powerful, can he make a rock so big that he himself can't lift it? HA, HA, HEEEEEY! WE GOT HIM NOW! AH, HA, HA!" Or else you'd take a very simple sin and surround it with the most bizarre circumstances you could imagine...to try to, y'know, relieve the guilt in the sin. We'd usually end up with the, uh, statement, "Would that then be a sin then, Father?"Quote:
Originally Posted by rockzmom
Like, here, this is an example. There was one sin- not receiving communion during Easter time. You had to perform your "Easter duty". You had to receive once between Ash Wednesday and Pentecost Sunday and if you didn't do it, it was a mortal sin. Provided, of course, you had said to yourself, "Hey, I'm not gonna do it this year!" And, uh, there weren't many mortal sins on that, but a lot of guys went to Venial(?) City on Easter duty and so you would ask the priest y'know, you'd..."Hey, Father, hey, uh.." Remember guys would leave their hand up after they got called on, right? And the priest would say, "What are you, the Statue of Liberty, Dunn?" "Oh, sorry Father. Anyways, Father. Suppose that you didn't make your Easter duty...and it's Pentecost Sunday...the last day...and you're on a ship at sea...and the chaplain goes into a coma...but you wanted to receive. And then it's Monday, too late...but then you cross the International Date Line!" "Yes, I'm sure God will take that into account. Sit down, Woozie."
:lol: Yes, they would have probably burned me back in the medieval Europe if I said that aloud. )))Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Actually in the liturgic year of the Western churches Easter is also the most important celebration and also the time when the liturgic year starts and ends. It's only the fact that the presents tend to be more interesting which makes Christmas the more interesting celebration in the eyes of the public and of course the economy.
What's very interesting in my opinion is that if you look at the mystics within any religious tradition, such as Meister Eckhardt in Christianity, the Muslim sufis, but also mystics of any other religion, monotheistic or no, the results and philosophies they reach are all pretty much the same, and there is no enmity between those philosophies anymore. While such content is normally called the esoteric (inner) teaching, religions as presented to the people are called exoteric; they are mostly window dressing for the masses who would not understand the underlying common principles and cannot be taught their content, so they are presented with something to fear so they behave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
My comments after reading this:
1) It-ogo is a physicist, I think! Do you feel like you have any special insights that make your faith stronger or weaker...?
2) I think the big question is whether you believe that God created the world, or that it created itself, or just happened! If I believe that God created the world, then I think he can manage to be two people at the same time.... and sit next to himself! Also under such circumstances the resurrection isn't hard to believe either.
3) People who feel that they are rational and sceptical and still want to believe, can check out books like "A case for Christ", "The privileged planet" and similar. They are about how very rational scientists became convinced about Christianity.
4) Illustration of Trinity
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-godhood2.gif
I don't remember I mentioned my specialization here, but yes, I am. No special insights or counter-insights connected to my activity in physics detected. :D I feel like mixing science and metaphysics (+religion) in any combination brings no good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
And, BTW I don't identify myself as a Christian.
For materialistic persons I suggest reading this:
Fine-tuned Universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html
It's not a proof of God's existance (well, not for them, anyway) but still an idea to ponder upon. Also try to estimate the probability of our universe coming into existence if only random chance ruled the process.
Hey, you was the one who declared skepticism towards British Scientists TM. Why do you think it is different? Scientific method has severe and complicated limitations. If one don't keep all of them in his mind, he can not often get even the general sense of the models. Those mathematical models are things in themselves. Don't take them too serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
And BTW I do not identify myself as materialistic person either. :)