There are many people in Moscow who were born in Russia to African father and Russian mother. So are they not Russian?
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There are many people in Moscow who were born in Russia to African father and Russian mother. So are they not Russian?
Well there were a lot of asian genes found in Russians genom. There is a lot of tartar influence found in Russian culture, starting with "frying" which came from tartars. Outside of 400 of paying taxes to tatars, Russia was OCCUPIED by tatars, and it was not an overnight event, believe. Still there were a lot of tatars representative in Russian княжествах, icluding tartar troops who were depended on Russian Prince. Do you believe they had no contacts with Russians at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmov
No, I do not think so, I believe that there are 2 parts, genom and culture. Considering that Ukranian culture is very similar to Russian, and during Soviet Union it was mixed even more, I took a conclusion that you were speaking about genom differences, as there should a very slight cultural ones.Quote:
And I have some questions: do you really believe that genes are so important?
no, I do not believe so. BTW, I am a tartar.Quote:
do you really believe that tatars were/are people of second sort?
where did I mention that Russians are second or any other sort? I do believe that all people are born equal.Quote:
and why do you think that having tatar genes 600-700 years ago makes a man to be not Russian or a man of second sort?
Actuall no. Из меня расист как из слона балерина. BTW I live in California. That is very liberal state.Quote:
I suppose you are racist, aren't you?
Though culture is what really makes you Russian, imho genes are important. I won't recognise a guy from Afrcia as (Afro)Russian. Never.[/quote:v8lei89r]Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov
I totally agree with you.
well, do I look very mongoloid? 8) :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov
http://pratchett.org/temp/marat/ppp.jpg
http://pratchett.org/temp/marat/PionerOktyabrenok.jpg
slightly
FYI Russians:
In english we don't say Tartars but Mongols, as in the Mongol Yoke (тартарское иго)... :wink:
-nitpicker
OHHH... SO thats what a tartar is?? Hahahah I never knew! Well cool.
And you look slavic.
thanks, I did not know. Actually in Russian we use 3 equal terms: Монголо-татары, Татары, Монголы. But the last 2 are names for current nations of tartars and mongols, which are 2 very different ethnic groups now. Modern mongols came from central China, mixed with mongol-tartars who were there. And the group which migrated and occupied Russia stayed there, mixed with slavics quite a bit, so you get face like mine. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
I guess so, but many Russians here in Sacramento think that I am an american who is quite fluent in Russian, even complement me for my Russian. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
tartars look like slavic often, and Russians got some asian features often, like high cheekbones. I still got some asian (mogoloid) features in me, a little omened eyes (в русской литературе встречается выражение: татарские глаза), semi-thick black hair (similar what chinise got), and got asian DNA in my митохондриях (do not know English spelling for the word).
I can even distinguish between Tatars and Bashkirs :)
I was born in Tatarstan near Bashkortostan, and the friends of my childhood belong to at least four nations.
Well, my mother is Bashkir. :)
But it is difficult to explain to americans what is that ethnic group. :)
Welcome to the forum - "Центральноазиатский исторический сервер"
topic "Антропологические типы тюрков"
and maybe you will be able to distinguish Tatars and Bashkirs too.
wow, thanks, it is not my field, but maybe my mother will be interested in that, thanks for the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by FL
Коллекция ссылок ("Центральноазиатский исторический сервер")
Там есть ссылки на башкирские сайты по истории.
I do not want to argue the point that Russians have Tatar genes or vice-versa. It doesn't matter I suppose. And I do not reject Tatar influence to Russian culture at all, but it couldn't be overwhelming, otherwise Russians would be muslims nowadays :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioner
And what if some Russians have Tatars blood? I just do not understand your statement that the Russians that have Tatar genes are not TRUE Russian. It is a sheer nonsense, I would say. Say, just, that any German who has Jewish blood is not a TRUE German, or any American who has Indian or African blood is not a TRUE Amercan, or any Spaniard who has Arabic blood is not a TRUE Spaniard and, in some countries, you would be sued for nacism, racism and so on :) Don't you see any analogies here?
mitochondria? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Pioner
It seems you are not very familiar with Mongolian (назовём так для простоты весь татарский суперэтос) history. Mongols were not Moslems. Коренная монгольская религия, которую должны были придерживаться все чингизиды (потомки Чингизхана), была религия бон. Многие монголы были христианами-несторианами, многие - язычниками. Ислам распространился в Поволжье еще до прихода монголов. Потом, опираясь на местных жителей, хан Узбек произвел переворот.
http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/R2R/r2r0 ... 02chapter3
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Покровитель Михаила - Тохта, направляясь на летнее кочевье, умер при невыясненных обстоятельствах, и власть захватил царевич Узбек (1312). Поддерживали Узбека многочисленные ордынские мусульмане, которые исстари селились в поволжских городах, и таким образом в Сарае пришла к власти новая партия - исламская.
Наследник традиций хана Берке - Узбек - проявил себя как крайне жестокий правитель. Приняв ислам, он под страхом смертной казни потребовал того же от всех своих подданных. Дотоле репрессии по религиозным мотивам в Орде никогда не применялись, поэтому не было ничего удивительного в том, что многие отказались принять "веру арабов". Ведь, по Ясе Чингисхана, хан не мог вмешиваться в вопросы веры, а свобода совести всегда понималась монголами как личная свобода человека. Узбек без колебаний отверг этот принцип - все, отказавшиеся обратиться в мусульманство, в том числе 70 царевичей Чингисидов, были казнены. Но большому количеству татар (христиан и язычников), отказавшихся принять ислам, удалось уехать на Русь и при Узбеке, и впоследствии.
…
При Иване Калите получил свое окончательное воплощение новый принцип строительства государства - принцип этнической терпимости. В отличие от Литвы, где предпочтение отдавалось католикам, в отличие от Орды, где после переворота Узбека стали преобладать мусульмане, в Москве подбор служилых людей осуществлялся исключительно по деловым качествам. Калита и его наследники принимали на службу и татар (христиан и язычников, бежавших из Орды после победы ислама и не желавших поступаться религиозными убеждениями), и православных литовцев, покидавших простых русских людей, все богатство которых заключалось в коне да сабле. Никаких владений у этих людей не было, и потому они искали службы, то есть государственных военных обязанностей, за выполнение коих от князя московского следовало вознаграждение в виде "корма" с небольшой деревеньки. Силой, связующей всех "новонаходников", в Москве стала православная вера. Ведь обязательным условием поступления на московскую службу было добровольное крещение. Креститься необходимо было и для заключения брака. Множество татар - ордынских выходцев - женились на русских красавицах, а татарки выходки замуж за русских.
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Кстати, есть версия, что Иван Грозный прямой потомок Мамая (участника Куликовской битвы). Род Глинских (матери Ивана Грозного) пошел от Мамая.
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НА ПОЛЕ КУЛИКОВОМ
Общее количество русских ратников, собравшихся под знаменами Дмитрия Московского, исчислялось 150 тысячами человек. Это войско состояло из княжеских конных и пеших дружин, а также ополчения, вооруженного копьями, рогатинами и топорами. Конница (около 20 тысяч дружинников) была сформирована из крещеных татар, перебежавших литовцев и обученных бою в татарском конном строю русских. В войсках Мамая была генуэзская пехота, а также аланы (осетины), касоги (черкесы) и половцы, мобилизованные на генуэзские деньги. Общая численность войск грозного темника составляла приблизительно 200 тысяч человек.
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I've read many works of L. Gumilev and apreciate them very much. But it is well known that by the end of XIII century most Mongols in the western part of their Imperia had become muslims, so if there was that severe "igo" of 400 years as we heard often, most probably the Russian would become muslims too. You see, Islam is very proselitic religion and it would be not very likely to be fully under newly-converted muslims for about 400 years and didn't become muslims too :) And we don't even have any Mosque in the Russian cities of that time. So I believe that L. Gumilev was right when he said that there was no such "igo" as we got used to believe, it was just some kind of political union between nomadic Mongols, settled Russians and many other nations...Quote:
Originally Posted by FL
Tartar<>Moslem at least in XIII-XVI century.
Though Tartars-Moslems lived in Russia too (in Vladimir region). They were касимовские татары.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FL
I.e. in beginning of XIV century Uzbek-khan executed all his vassals who didn't agree to become muslims. But what did prevent him to make the same in the Russia if there was that dreadful "igo" then? Except that he simply didn't have the appropriate power to do so, and Russians had some considerable independence even then, just after 70 years of the Mongol-invasion?Quote:
Originally Posted by FL
Like lenin =) he had some mongolian in him, thats why he was so funny lookin.
BTW Pioner. i think the term is 'mongolian'... Mongliod is like, what we call retarded people who all look the same.
Yes, you are quite right. At least one of Lenin's grandparents was Tatar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
I knew reading that 450 page book about him would come in handy one day.
I wondered about his name too. I know he was born in Russia in Solnechni (Khabarovsk region in Siberia), and he has lived in Russia all his life. He is very patriotic too, a lot of skaters like Yagudin left Russia to train in other countries but he loves Russia so much he said he would never leave. Plus he skates for Russia, in my book he's a REAL Russian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
i bet his grandpas a lousy bum in lvov or something.
What do you think about people from Kyrgystan? This guy I was seeing for awhile was from there, and when I first met him he said he was Russian. He looked well....hott to say at the least, but definately like he had some asian in him. He later told me he was half tatar. Whenever I tell my x-boyfriend who is Russian, from Novosibirsk to be exact, that the guy I was seeing is Russian he would get so mad and be like "he is not Russian!" However, culturally he seems to be Russian in many ways.
Novosibirsk is everywhere! Don't you think this city appears too often? :wink:
P.S. I live in Novosibirsk too :)
I know more Russians from Novosibirsk than from any other city or town in Russia to speak of.
Not a big deal. I was just surprised with the conception of REAL Russian vs Ukranian. I do not think that that there is much difference in the cultures. So the this argument should be void.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmov
BTW, I heard that prince Vladimir was choosing between accepting Christianity vs Islam. And choosed Christianity as he did not like the idea of circumcision. Maybe just a historical anekdot, but could be true, that Russia could turn an Islamic country. And not because of tartars. Tartars accepted Islam much later then Russians and Ukranians accepted Chrisianity.
thank you. I will forget that soon, again. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by nightfaerie
Lenin had a lot of kalmyk blood in him, that's why he look mongloid/asian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
No, for retarded people is something different. Kids with Down syndrom got usually got face which look very similar to Mongloid/asian type. Just by accident, genes work somehow this way. That's why another name for Down Sysndrom is Mongolian syndrom. No correlation with Mongolians so far, it is like link Заячья Губа к зайцам и кроликам.
That brought an almost andekdotical story to my life, when my wife was pregnat, some tests shows possibility of Down syndrom (1/52 chances). But doctors made a huge issue of that. Stupid system, really. But anyhow, chromosome analysis afterwards showed that everything was normal. But before that my mother-in-low were speculating that I got some mongolian blood in me, that's why the child my have Mongolian syndrom.
Sounds like your mother-in-law was educated in US. :twisted:
Well that guy from Novosibisk was not right. And guessing by appearence is racist I believe. Anyhow, the culture is what makes you any ethnic mostly. Me, personally, being tartar/bashkir, most of my culture is Russian. I speak Russian, I listen Russian music, I read Russian books, I count money on Russian (that's the best test to find what is your real native language). Unfortunately I do not have too much money to count. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by russkayalove
yep, pure american, but a funny part, she was a teacher of biology.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
I do not think I know anybody from Novosibirsk, but I got a lot of friends, scientists from Russia, who live here. Some of them can be from Novosibirsk.Quote:
Originally Posted by russkayalove
No, as I wrote, I heard he got Kalmyk ancestors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmov
http://images.snapfish.com/34432%3A%3A% ... E234%3A%3D%
tell me if this works :thumbup:
no, it doesn't.
404
I never have heard something like this - "Mongliod is like, what we call retarded people who all look the same". It is specific western viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioner
Well its the truth. Its not viewpoint its just a term.
Mongolian- People from mongolia
Mongliod- Retarded looking people with no features.