Anyone doing any useless..uh I mean...obscure languages?

I've NOT HEARD PEEP! about anyone learning Greek here.Quite a notable language that has been delegated to obsurity on this forum.Greeks, yiasou?
I'd like to know if anyone is learning very localized languages hidden away in a mountain village somewhere.Or even one's own home-made alphabets.And trekkers, Ahk bahk tich kuk? (no, that meant nothing.I don't speak Klingon).Hyvaa Paivaa, Elves! (I have hard enough a time finding anyone who'd know what language that greeting was in, let alone finding anyone whose dabbled in its fantasy-world off-spring).
Esperanto has been broached.
My answer to the poll? I'm not telling.Coz, those jackets are really uncomfortable.

EDIT: Here is a link displaying countless unusual alphabets.(Aswell, it has the commonplace ones we all know). There are ancient alphabets ie. Heiroglyphics, Runic etc. There are make-believe alphabets ie. Elvish, Klingon. Ones that users of this site created themselves eg. futuristic looking ones. Ones made for video games etc. And of course the run of the mill real alphabets ie. modern Arabic, Hebrew, Armenian, Korean etc.
http://www.omniglot.com/

Klingon and Elvish are only make believe if you consider Esperanto, a language with 2 million speakers, (Some of which native speakers) make believe.

Yay! Thanks BlackMage for participating in my poll.And it's the first time I've ever started a thread.So, ta! for being the opening respondant.
I think Esperanto is a great idea.For it to work, it'd have to be pursued by government.Maybe the United Nations should support its usage in schools throughout the world.Even though English is used as the global language, politics suggests to me that there should be a neutral language.Despite what public face diplomats put on, I do believe that non-English speaking countries resent having their own languages treated as second-class citizens.And on that note; I'd hate to be the one to tell a Klingon that his language holds no weight here.

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Anyone doing any useless..uh I mean...obscure languages?

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Yeah, Russian.

[sticks out tongue at VM]

Haha. A few years back I decided to take up Latin. Little did I know that it was a dead language. I thought it was still spoken on some isolated little volcano in Rome or something...

Ha ha.Yeah that's the reason I've never even contemplated learning Latin.Are you sure you were mis-guided though.Isn't Latin the official language (along with Italian?) of Vatican City.Your geography was at least half right.It's not volcanic, but Vatican City (actually a nation, I'm sure?) is within, or on the outskirts of Rome.But I'm assuming that accompanying your rude shoch of Latin being dead, is knowledge beyond my own on Vatican City's national and linguistic status.
I think it's the way that people go on about Latin's prestigiousness that could give one an impression it's a living language.very always says to me "You should learn Latin.It'll sharpen your intelligence".Alot of pretence surrounding it, unfortunately.But, I don't dismiss the excitement of reading the endless amounts of ancient texts in their original language.That would certainly be a time-travel experience for me.But, there's so many 'living' people in the world I want to communicate with.I prefer devoting time to that.But I can definitely see the attraction to dead language pursuits.
:idea: Hey, I've got a good insult for when a pretentious intellectual thinks he's better than you just because he speaks Latin - "Linguistic necrophile!".

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Originally Posted by scotcher

[sticks out tongue at VM]

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[hacks off tip of scotcher's tongue with machete]

I studied Latin in the university for 1 year. It was obligatory. I don't think it is so rare because a lot of people study it. Some other people studied Greek. In our department we studied also Gothic, Old English and Middle English, for 1 term each, but not very hard, just for getting the whole picture. Then I tried to learn a little bit of Sanskrit as an optional subject, but gave up after 5-6 months of inconstant studies. Then 10 or so lessons of Irish, also optional. Now I'm trying to learn Chinese by myself with 4-5 month interval after each "session" (during which I forget almost everything), but considering the number of Chinese people in the world I doubt it can be called "rare" or "exotic". :)

BTW, brett, your habit of not making a space after stops and commas makes me dizzy.

When I went to school, in Australia, most schools offered French and Latin only.

I went to what was considered to be a more progressive school. It offerred Latin, French, German and Indonesian. My brother and sister learned Indonesian while I studied German. My first attempt at a language was however, Esperanto. I am currently trying to decide if I should next set a course to brush up on my German or start with Spanish or wait untill my Russian is fluent before doing either.

I am currently learning Mandarin Chinese.

Where is Esperanto spoken?

On the internet, mainly, by practitioners of applied futility.

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Originally Posted by Евгения Белякова

Where is Esperanto spoken?

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As far as I know it is not spoken anywhere, maybe on the internet as Pravit says , I don't know. Someone in China the other, day made a post here claiming that it is taught in several universities there.
Esperanto was someones bright idea of uniting the world with a common language. It is totally made up, a plastic language.

And it is highly Eurocentric. Not surprising, considering it was invented by some Pole in the 19th century. A poor choice for an international auxiliary language, IMO, if you even wanted to have one.

Being a dead language doesn't mean no one uses it necessary, but rather that it is no longer evolving. With English, for example, we are always making up new words to fit advances in the culture. Even the way we say the words changes over time. However, even though I know full well Latin is spoken in "churchy" places, you don't see people making up new Latin words.

Competence problems (I'm learning to 'quote' properly)

same deal. :roll:
(but don't worry, Waxwing and DenisM set me straight, so the next one is fine)

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Originally Posted by Propp

Then 10 years of Irish, also optional.

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I've considered Scottish, as it's my maternal ancestry. I only realized a couple years ago that my grandma's mother tongue was Scots-Gaelic, and that she'd only learnt English at age 30yrs. I always put my inability to comprehend her down to the fact that she was, well... Scottish. And old people losing their teeth never helps.

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Originally Posted by Propp

BTW, brett, your habit of not making space after stops and commas makes me dizzy.

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Yeah, it'll be less cluttered if I heed that advice. I have a habit of making people dizzy. Before you, my mongrelization of French/English sent Pravit to the optomitrists. :)

DDT, I'd thought of learning Australia's Aboriginal greeting phrases, but two reasons stopped that idea. 1- No two regions speak the same language. I don;t think they're even dialects. 2- City Aboriginals have been forced from their roots for so long, that George W. Bush is more likely to speak their language than they themselves are. :lol:

Regarding Esperanto...

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Originally Posted by Pravit

..is highly Eurocentric. A poor choice for an international auxiliary language, IMO, if you even want to have one.

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This is what has not impressed me about Esperanto. It needs to be at an equal difficulty level (as much as possible) for diverse linguistic groups. But, it's a start anyway. Maybe at the inventor's time, it was more difficult to establish a knowledge of non-Western languages.

If I was going to answer my own poll (honestly, I mean. As opposed to my evasive answer), I'd have answered "yes". Making my own alphabet would be pointless if was was only going to learn a couple of related languages. But, because I learn the basic phrases of all languages (as is my intention, anyhow) with sounds that which romanization cannot account for, making my own system became very helpful. I have a card box. My first few cards are 'phonetic keys', which have about 40 letters (so far). And, each new language symbol I come across for a sound, gets considered as my representation to replace my latin-based interim symbols. So, I'll use Arabic letters etc. And the rest of the cards have a sticker of the country's flag, and lists phrases with my phonetics. It takes dedication to put it together, yes. (Which is why it's still spotty and dis-organized). But, when I forget how to say "yes" in a language, going to my cards is easier than rewinding and forwarding through cassette tapes for the right pronunciation.
But, I though those phonetics symbols next to word in dictionaries were universal. But, I asked at an extensive language book-store for a cassette and booklet for it, and they hadn't heard of such a phonetic system encompassing 'all' languages. Is there such a system? I thought it was called "International Phonetic Alphabet".

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Originally Posted by Evgenya

Where is Esperanto spoken?

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As a couple others have said, Esperanto is not native to anywhere.Some guy had an idea to have a language that 'the whole world' could understand. It didn't catch on. According to someone on this forum, Hungary has a strong adoption of it in high-schools, or university. But, it has no home, even though it was a Pole who created it.(According to Mr. Pra 'Know-it-all' Vit, anyway) :P

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This is what has not impressed me about Esperanto. It needs to be at an equal difficulty level (as much as possible) for diverse linguistic groups. But, it's a start anyway. Maybe at the inventor's time, it was more difficult to establish a knowledge of non-Western languages.

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The thing is that it resembles European languages in its vocabulary and structure. And it was created by only one guy. Plus, its grammar doesn't seem to be as simple as you might think, have you seen that article "Why Not to Learn Esperanto?"(although maybe the guy who wrote that is just an incompetent Esperantist, I don't know). If we were to do such a thing nowadays, I'd say get linguists from around the world into a big committee and have them argue for years while they created a new auxiliary language. Until they realize it's pointless and give up. :D

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Originally Posted by nightfaerie

Being a dead language doesn't mean no one uses it necessary, but rather that it is no longer evolving. With English, for example, we are always making up new words to fit advances in the culture. Even the way we say the words changes over time. However, even though I know full well Latin is spoken in "churchy" places, you don't see people making up new Latin words.

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Once I saw a German-English-Latin phrase book printed in 1900 or so. There were phrases like "When does this train arrive at the station" and "where did you buy your new whatch". As far as I remember "a whatch" was "horlogium". :)
brett, it was "10 lessons", not years.
International Phonetic Alphabet does exist, but not all dictionaries stick to it, especially american ones. For some incomprehensible reason the editors of these dictionaries think that fine [fIn] is more easy to grasp than fine [fain].

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Originally Posted by Propp

brett, it was "10 lessons", not years.

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Ha. Sorry :oops:. By the time I finally got the 'quote' function down, I was sleep-typing what I'd already written twice over. I smell a defamation law-suit coming. (But, between you and me, it really was 10yrs, wasn't it. Don't worry, you'll get there champ. [insert "patronization" emoticon here]) :wink:
Well, if the International Phonetic Alphabet does exist, I'll have to return to that bookshop and ask a more knowledgable attendant, then.

I wonder if anyone has a deaf or blind friend, and knows any sign-language or brail. A friend down my street has a grandson who lip-reads like nobody's business. People can't even tell his deaf. Though when 'he' talks, I think the penny drops. Though, I myself haven't met him. The deaf community seem tucked away from society a bit. I remember I used to catch a regular train with deaf-school students. Has anyone heard a deaf person laugh? These ones were LOUD!

Perhaps we could replace the IPA with a more scientific system consisting of a phase space of, say, 30-50 variables - then we could all have a little bit of software (very simple) that would generate the sound for us based on the setting of each variable. Admittedly not very useful for paper dictionaries :), but it just seens that phonetics is too complex to represent with one symbol per phoneme. The differences in phonetic representation between the various dictionaries can be truly maddening, but entirely understandable given the huge variations in pronunciation.

Let's make our own language!
OK here's my feature list.
No prepositions.
4-8 cases for nouns, serving the purpose of prepositions. Adjectives have to agree for case.
No articles (that's a no-brainer)
No genders. They're very pretty, but you don't need them, do you?
Word order: Strict SVO with a question particle (like Chinese) for questions, not a change in word order - very easy to learn, very intuitive for most people.
Tense and Aspect: let's have it pretty much like Russian: three tenses and two aspects. That seems like enough to cover most requirements. (Apparently Chinese doesn't have tense, but I haven't really studied it yet. The Chinese option could be interesting)
Verbs should have no conjugation (again like Chinese) - so you'll need to strictly include subject pronouns.
Use prefixes for motion verbs but none of this multidirectional nonsense.
No reflexive verbs, have a particle for 'self' or something like that.

Anybody want to change the list?

This could be interesting(I guess we all fit under the first category, then, eh? :wink:). If there is no verb conjugation yet but there are two aspects, I'm thinking we would have to indicate this with particles, much like in Chinese ("le" and "guo", anyone?). But how then are we going to do tense? I don't think Chinese has tense per se. It is implied through the use of words like "tomorrow, now, yesterday", etc. But perhaps we could come up with more particles that show tense if it isn't already clear from the context, although that's beginning to sound an awful lot like verb conjugation.

About nouns, how are we going to decline them? I say we be nice and we don't actually change the word(for example красивая - красивой). Instead we apply some suffix(which is the same for all nouns).

The hardest part will probably be picking word roots. You could go the international route like Lojban and randomly pick words from several languages. Or you could just come up with something yourself, which is what I'd prefer. I propose that the language be polysyllabic and as free from ambiguity as possible.

Also, I'm wondering how you'll derive new words. Aren't there linguistic terms for languages which derive words from roots and languages which take existing words and add them together, or something like that? Enlighten me, please!

I have a couple of points to offer. But, seeing as that this could become a huge monster, one day neccessitating its own seperate "Lounge" even, perhaps we should at least start a new thread 'specifically' for "our language", or whatever it ends up being named. I guess Waxwing should have the honours of starting it. :wink:
(Though, I don't know if this fits in with MasterRussian's intentions for this forum. But they'll let us know their stance soon enough).

I have developed this profound interest in Finnish and Basque. However, I have yet to find resources.

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Originally Posted by Mixaelus

I have developed this profound interest in Finnish and Basque. However, I have yet to find resources.

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I also have a long-standing interset in Finnish, ever since a musical group called Hedningarna introduced me to Nordic culture. All it takes is for one person (or artist) to express the beauty of a language and culture, and I'm hooked because of what they make me see in it. The sense of wilderness to Nordic lands, is what draws me in. Even though there are more useful languages for me than Finnish, its beauty keeps drawing my attention. But, I've not gotten anywhere with it really, due to those depleted resources you spoke of. Basque? Good luck finding resources for that one. :) I have actually seen a couple of products for Basque. There are usually a couple of products around for a given language, but you need ones suitable for your own learning style. So, it's just a matter of luck as to whether or not that 'one' item you find for that language, is in your own particular style of learning. So far, my Finnish has been accumulated through scrounging bits and pieces from millions of sources. It has been a very dis-organized process.

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Originally Posted by Pravit

This could be interesting(I guess we all fit under the first category, then, eh? :wink:). If there is no verb conjugation yet but there are two aspects, I'm thinking we would have to indicate this with particles, much like in Chinese ("le" and "guo", anyone?).
But how then are we going to do tense? I don't think Chinese has tense per se. It is implied through the use of words like "tomorrow, now, yesterday", etc.

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Yes, you're right about tense in Chinese. That's what I've been told.
Well I was thinking just to use suffixes like -л in Russian for the tenses. And for the aspect you could use just one standard prefix. Like Russian but simpler. I like the Russian system for tense/aspect. 'le' is apparently a complete nightmare, but I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Pravit

About nouns, how are we going to decline them? I say we be nice and we don't actually change the word(for example красивая - красивой). Instead we apply some suffix(which is the same for all nouns).

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Yeah, that's what I mean. One regular declination. Because there are no genders.

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Originally Posted by Pravit

I propose that the language be polysyllabic and as free from ambiguity as possible.

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Well yes. I guess the choice is between polysyllabic (the Indo-European .. and Turkic?) on the one hand or tonal (Sino-Tibetan) on the other? Personally I can't handle tones but that's probably just my problem.

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Originally Posted by Pravit

Also, I'm wondering how you'll derive new words. Aren't there linguistic terms for languages which derive words from roots and languages which take existing words and add them together, or something like that? Enlighten me, please!

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Well I can't really answer that except to say I guess I'm proposing a synthetic language. You maybe talking about the distinction between synthetic and analytic languages, but I'm a bit hazy on this. I think it's easier to make new words in a synthetic language - witness Anglophones' use of Latin for technical fields such as medicine.

You know, waxwing, I'm wondering if we should really make aspect a part of the verb. Perhaps we should just use helping words? Otherwise it gets difficult and sometimes you run into the "uh-oh, should I use perfective or imperfective." About "le" I've heard it is indeed a nightmare but we could have something similar with less nightmareish qualities.

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Well yes. I guess the choice is between polysyllabic (the Indo-European .. and Turkic?) on the one hand or tonal (Sino-Tibetan) on the other? Personally I can't handle tones but that's probably just my problem.

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Oh, please no, I don't want tones! I can handle them fine but the only reason they're in any modern language is to increase the amount of sounds somewhat. Without tones, modern putonghua has something like 400 distinct sounds. I heard they developed from consonant clusters being eliminated in Middle Chinese. Or something. But anyhow, I prefer polysyllabic. Bloody hard to remember 500 meanings for the word "zhao."

Yep, synthetic is the word I meant. It should be like that!

I think the tones could serve a grammatical function, instead of altering the meaning of two similarly spelt nouns or adjectives etc. The question of how to broach tense, could be solved with tones; (using Mandarin tone model)
VERBS
Present tense = tone 5 (neutral flat)
Past tense = tone 4 (dropping)
Future tense = tone 2 (rising)

This way you wouldn't need to change the word itself with declinations or suffixes. You say the very same word but with a different tone.

So, should we get a new seperate thread for this pursuit :?: :). I'll be happy to start it, if no-one else wants the honours. Because, I think due it getting highly technical, we'll be drowning out any posters who aren't participating in this particular pursuit :wink: . Feedback? :)

Eh....sounds kind of interesting, but tones work best with one syllable only. So all your verbs with either have to be one syllable or you'd have to play some kind of repeat the tone game for each syllable in the verb. Besides, me no like tones.

Well, see, it depends on if we're making a new possibile international auxiliary language or if we're just trying to cook up something really weird. If it's the latter case, then maybe the tone = tense thing isn't a half bad idea. :D

I did a bit of tolkeinish for a while. Just writing people's names in quenya, or goofy poems upon request. It's been quite some time though.

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Originally Posted by дано

I did a bit of tolkeinish for a while. Just writing people's names in quenya, or goofy poems upon request. It's been quite some time though.

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Show us a little sample of a goofy poem? And I don't know what 'quenya' is. How do those names look like? Unless romanized alphabet can't represent its alphabet justly. Which is probably the case with most hidden/obscure languages.

And for that matter, anyone who knows an unusual language could give short samples of of what it looks like. Or, even give a link to a page displaying its alphabet?

I just now found a site showing various unusual alphabets; http://www.omniglot.com/

Come now, Waxwing, you've already given up on our grand project? BTW, did you happen to frequent the Chinese Language & Culture forums around June or July? I saw a couple posts by a Waxwing from Stavropol there.

Yes, that was me :) :oops:
I tried to start learning Chinese then. I have a couple of good books now, but absolutely no time ... to learn either Chinese or Russian :(

It is a nice forum, though, I think. Haven't been there in a while.

As for our project, I was just interested to read what people's wish-list would be. I had no intention of ever doing it. By the way, what happened to Master-Russian-3D? :wink:

Master-Russian-3D was never really cancelled. It just sort of got put off until I forgot about it. Sort of like when I was last reading Двенадцать Стульев. I was reading away until the part where the theatre troupe goes to some other city. And then they started hitting me hard with the 1920's Russian inside humor and I decided to put it away for another day. And then I sort of forgot about it. I should take a break from Chinese and just finish the book.

Ah, yes, MR 3D. Anyhow, besides me being lazy, the guy who was supposed to do all the textures and 3D artwork stopped. Ah yes, always easy to blame someone else.

And I don't know how to program that well.

To continue the 'hypthetical' global language; Alphabet and Phonetics

Given that a global language is useful to the degree that it is easy to learn, I'd maximize the amount of letters and sounds. Because the more sounds you have, the more easy it is to distinguish words from one another when you hear it spoken. So, listening comprehension would be alot easier than in traditional languages, therefore mastered earlier. Creating a new language, we wouldn't be tied to the limit in sounds that traditonal languages are bound by.
No diphtongs. Nor qualifyers, or whatever those 'symbols/letter softeners' near the end of Russian's alphabet are called. Each letter = one sound. No silent letters. My belief has always been- if a letter is silent, it should also be invisible. No superfluosity.
Having 40-50 letter could look daunting to an adult. But as a child, they tell you how many letters their are, and you just learn them. 26 letters vs 50? No difference, in principal. Once you've learnt them, you're set for life. If you had to, you could teach the alphabet to children with two songs, one for each half of the alphabet.
The more comprehensive the foundation, the easier the language is to use once you've learnt it. With English, you could show five people a word they'd not seen before, and ask them to pronounce it. You'd get maybe three diverse pronunciations between them. And someone just new to the language may have come across that word on the written page, and still not recognize it as the word he heard. A strong alphabet would eleminate 'lost in translation' aspect of written to spoken.
The simple explanation for an extensive alphabet- memory is the simpler part of language. Which is not to say there's no difficulty there. But it's only a short-term obstacle. It's application that is the hard part to becoming profficient at a language. Application is what'll plague you beyond the first year.

And, the letters should look pretty as flowers. :P

You mean we should have a syllabary? Interesting. But any language will invariably be difficult to understand in fast speech. Therefore the sounds should be such that you are forced to say them clearly.